Ripper Facts

[Craig H]

John William Sanders

Psychological profilers have suggested that the Ripper may have had a father who was absent most of their life, and a domineering mother, was never married, had no children and may have had VD / syphilis.

As mentioned above:

• John Sanders went to a Boarding school at Derby – a long distance from where his parents lived so assume minimal contact. Sanders then studied / worked in London – again, away from family.
• His father (and grandfather) were both Prison Governors – so may have had a very authoritarian view on world
• John and his siblings – Charles (a draper who lived with his parents his whole life) and Frederick (a naval lieutenant and freemason who died in his 70’s) – never married
• There was a significant gap between when John was born (1859) and his siblings were born (Charles in 1867, and Frederick in 1869). Maybe there was marital conflict ?

His mother – maiden name Sarah Jane Kernot (bn 1833 in Essex) – also had siblings who did not marry:

• Abraham Bowerman Kernot (bn 1835) is a 45 y.o. unmarried surgeon in Leeth, Yorkshire in the 1881 Census. Then something strange happened. He married a Sarah Hillary (20 years younger than him) in March 1887 who had a son (also Abraham) 3 months later in June 1887. Sarah died shortly after in June 1888.
• Mary Ann Kernot (bn 1836) died a spinster in 1909
• Emily Bowerman Kernot (bn 1838) died a spinster in 1915
• Louisa Katherine Kernot (bn 1840) didn’t marry, and died at 35 y.o.in Southwark.
• Kate Charlotte Kernot (bn 1845) was the only who married (had two sons with husband William Cooper)

The Sanders children had their mother’s family name (Kernot) as a middle name. The Kernot children also had their mother’s family name (Bowerman) as a middle name.

One wonders why the Kernot children did not marry. Were the three women domineering or was there a health reason why they did not marry ?

It seems strange that most of the Kernot and Sanders children did not marry.

Can anyone use some of their research magic to find out more about these families ?

Also, can someone find out more about John William Sanders who died in 1889 ? Is there any record of his height, or a photo of him ?

Regards

Craig

[Pierre]

Psychological profilers have suggested that the Ripper may have had a father who was absent most of their life, and a domineering mother, was never married, had no children and may have had VD / syphilis.

As mentioned above:

• John Sanders went to a Boarding school at Derby – a long distance from where his parents lived so assume minimal contact. Sanders then studied / worked in London – again, away from family.
• His father (and grandfather) were both Prison Governors – so may have had a very authoritarian view on world
• John and his siblings – Charles (a draper who lived with his parents his whole life) and Frederick (a naval lieutenant and freemason who died in his 70’s) – never married
• There was a significant gap between when John was born (1859) and his siblings were born (Charles in 1867, and Frederick in 1869). Maybe there was marital conflict ?

His mother – maiden name Sarah Jane Kernot (bn 1833 in Essex) – also had siblings who did not marry:

• Abraham Bowerman Kernot (bn 1835) is a 45 y.o. unmarried surgeon in Leeth, Yorkshire in the 1881 Census. Then something strange happened. He married a Sarah Hillary (20 years younger than him) in March 1887 who had a son (also Abraham) 3 months later in June 1887. Sarah died shortly after in June 1888.
• Mary Ann Kernot (bn 1836) died a spinster in 1909
• Emily Bowerman Kernot (bn 1838) died a spinster in 1915
• Louisa Katherine Kernot (bn 1840) didn’t marry, and died at 35 y.o.in Southwark.
• Kate Charlotte Kernot (bn 1845) was the only who married (had two sons with husband William Cooper)

The Sanders children had their mother’s family name (Kernot) as a middle name. The Kernot children also had their mother’s family name (Bowerman) as a middle name.

One wonders why the Kernot children did not marry. Were the three women domineering or was there a health reason why they did not marry ?

It seems strange that most of the Kernot and Sanders children did not marry.

Can anyone use some of their research magic to find out more about these families ?

Also, can someone find out more about John William Sanders who died in 1889 ? Is there any record of his height, or a photo of him ?

Regards

Craig

Hi Craig,

A lot of people had absent fathers. It is not a useful variable.

Regards, Pierre

[Henry Flower]

They didn´t.

Regards, Pierre

Yes they did.

Regards, Henri

[Craig H]

JTR Had Dissection skills ?

I keep coming back to whether JTR had surgical / dissection skills as this significantly reduces the number of suspects.

I know this question has been covered before. Prosector started an excellent thread (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...light=surgical )

I’ve spent time reviewing previous threads and tried to summarise “the wisdom of the crowd” in the following.

JTR’s attacks had a high degree of difficulty. To open someone, remove body parts, in darkness (as JTR attacked in moonless nights), in short time, under pressure or fear of being caught requires someone who has done this many times before. An average person wouldn’t know where to start. A butcher would also be in unfamiliar territory. Dr Gordon Brown asked an associate to remove a uterus. This person completed those mutilations in three minutes, but in the process he did injure the bladder, whereas JTR didn’t.

The careful removal of the kidney (Eddowes). This required cutting through the peritoneal lining or “sack”, and then remove the kidney. This could not be done In a “slash & grab” approach. He knew what he was doing. The killer had to detach the small intestines from the mesentery, and then know where to find the kidney (hidden behind the sack)

A midline incision that skirts around the umbilicus (belly button) to the right. This is standard practice for a surgeon when he is expected to sew up the patient after the operation or autopsy. The umbilicus is too tough to sew up so it is avoided and always cut to the right.

He avoided cutting lower intestine which would have spilled faecal matter. An unskilled attacker would have accidentally cut this.

There was a mixed response from coroners on whether JTR had surgical skills.

Polly Nichols: "Must have had some rough anatomical knowledge, for he seemed to have attacked all the vital parts" (Llewellyn).

Annie Chapman: “Obviously the work was that of an expert - of one, at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of of a knife..." (The Lancet, unsigned piece, 29 September 1888). "I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, in under a quarter of an hour. " (Philips).

Kate Eddowes: "I should say that someone who knew the position of the kidney must have done it," (Dr Brown)

Mary Kelly : The consensus was this attack was more brutal than surgical. Bond did not believe the attacker had surgical skills. He reviewed Kelly and previous autopsies and said "In each case, the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific or anatomical knowledge. In my opinion, he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals"

Prosector also said surgeons at that time rarely did abdominal surgery. Who in the 1880’s were more likely to do dissection and remove kidneys, uterus, etc. ? Would it be those doing autopsies ? Is that police surgeons ?

[Craig H]

George Hartley O'Reilly

When I have time, I'm researching surgeons who match my hypothesis that JtR lived around Whitechapel, was aged between 25 - 40 y.o in 1888 (matching witness descriptions) and was not married.

One person who could fit this profile is George Hartley O'Reilly, bn 1863, lived in area, never married (interestingly neither of his two brothers married).

The 1940 “UK & Ireland Medical Directory" provides the following details on him : “George Hartley O’Reilly; 6 Victoria Rd, Colchester, Essex. M.B (Hnrs, Mat. Med., Med. & For. Med) Lond. 1888, M.D (State Med) 1891; M.R.C.S. Eng. & L.S.A 1886 : (King’s Coll); A.K.C; late Surg. M Div. Metrop Police; Asst. Ho. Surg. Rotherham Hosp.; Ho. Surg. Bromp. Cancer Hosp."

Can any one shed any light on the "late Surg. M Div. Metrop Police" reference ? Do we know when he worked for Metrop Police ? What was M. Div ?

Does "late" mean "previously" ? Strange phrase. Wouldn't everything be previously ?

Craig

[Robert]

Hi Craig

M Division was Southwark.

"Late" here just means "former." Supt Cutbush was described as 'late' even though he was still alive.

As far as I can tell, O'Reilly was at 280 Commercial Rd (small boarding house) in 1891.

He died in 1948 at Colchester.

[Craig H]

Thanks Robert for clarifying.

I know it’s all speculation. As you say, in 1891, George was 28 y.o, single, a boarder at 280 Commercial Rd (was that a lodging house) which was just south of the murder sites.

He obviously had surgical skills as he listed his occupation as surgeon, and his bio said he was later House Surgeon at two hospitals.

He never married. When he died, his probate of 9,000 pound went to Westminster Bank.

The item that intrigues me he was previously a police surgeon at M Division.

How can we find out when that was ?

If it was 1888, it could suggest he could access information on police schedules.

Some say JTR may have been police as he avoided their routes

Craig

[Sam Flynn]

If JTR had had some surgical experience, I'd have expected to see more consistency, both in the way he opened up his victims and in how the organs were removed. As it is, there was quite some variation on both fronts.

[Robert]

Hi Craig

Re your question : I don't know. I've tried to find newspaper reports mentioning the M division surgeon for that year but no luck. I found O'Reilly in the medical directory for 1890 and it doesn't mention police work, whereas Frederick Gordon Brown's entry does - but then again, Bagster Phillips's doesn't!

It's very likely that someone on here will know the answer but otherwise all I can suggest is to try the National archives.

[Varqm]

If JTR had had some surgical experience, I'd have expected to see more consistency, both in the way he opened up his victims and in how the organs were removed. As it is, there was quite some variation on both fronts.

Agreed,more than not.Just a thought,that a doctor/surgeon who had experiences in post-mortem/training/practice would be less curious about those "vile" things,kidney/uterus for ex., inside a body than somebody less experienced about it,driven more by "an imagination" about those.I think though that he must have some knowledge about those through pictures/drawings/animals or observed a post-mortem/training.Correct it if wrong but I have never read a doctor/killer interested in those body parts.

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[Craig H]

If JTR had had some surgical experience, I'd have expected to see more consistency, both in the way he opened up his victims and in how the organs were removed. As it is, there was quite some variation on both fronts.

I'm not across the detail on differences in how he removed organs, and I know a lot of people think he didn't have surgical experience.

However, the other view (outlined earlier in this thread and on other threads) is it must have been incredibly difficult to remove organs in darkness, in short time, with fear of being caught. Some people with medical skills said it's difficult to do, also he must have known what he was doing.

Craig

[Craig H]

Hi Craig

Re your question : I don't know. I've tried to find newspaper reports mentioning the M division surgeon for that year but no luck. I found O'Reilly in the medical directory for 1890 and it doesn't mention police work, whereas Frederick Gordon Brown's entry does - but then again, Bagster Phillips's doesn't!

It's very likely that someone on here will know the answer but otherwise all I can suggest is to try the National archives.

Thanks Robert,

I'll reach out to Monty who is a font of knowledge on all things police related.

Can you post O'Reilly's 1890 medical directory entry ? Does it say what his area of expertise was ?

The bio I posted said his Uni honours was (Hnrs, Mat. Med., Med. & For. Med) . I think "Mat.Med" is "materia medica" which is study of drugs or what we now call pharmacology. I'm not sure what "For. Med" is ? Forensic medicine ?

The "L.S.A" I think is "Licentiate of ;the Society of Apothecaries" which relates again to pharmacology.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Craig,

Is this your man?



Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

Hi Simon

That's him. I saw news of his MB in a Channel Islands newspaper late November 1888.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

Bingo!

The cutting is from the Guernsey Star, 27th November 1888.

Regards,

Simon