Ripper Facts

[DJA]

Could this suggest that Jack knew them, or at least had seen them before ?

Craig

Yep!

For longer than most imagine.

[Elamarna]

What makes the Church Lane sighting likely to be the Ripper is that people saw a man 30 minutes after the killing, the man had a similar description (short jacket and sailor hat, age) to the other witnesses (PC William Smith), and he appeared suspicious (tried to hide his face)

Craig

Craig,

For once I have to disagree,
It does not make it likely, it makes it possible that is all.

the timing is the problem, we know when Eddowes was found, the time of the sighting makes that very tight, even allowing for inaccurate recording of the sighting.

Steve

[Rosella]

Flower and Dean St was packed with lodging houses though, themselves jammed to overflowing with men and women. Some stayed a night or two, some longer. It was an extremely transient population. Considering the tiny area Jack chose to operate in, it's not surprising at all that several of his victims probably knew each other, at least by sight. They inhabited the same lodging houses, drank in the same pubs, undoubtedly sometimes on the same days and nights, and tramped the same streets.

[Craig H]

Craig,

For once I have to disagree,
It does not make it likely, it makes it possible that is all.

the timing is the problem, we know when Eddowes was found, the time of the sighting makes that very tight, even allowing for inaccurate recording of the sighting.

Steve

Hi Steve

Good point .... It would mean he was 1 a.m at Berner St, 130 am at Church Lane and 145 am at Mitre Square ...

Craig

[Craig H]

Flower and Dean St was packed with lodging houses though, themselves jammed to overflowing with men and women. Some stayed a night or two, some longer. It was an extremely transient population. Considering the tiny area Jack chose to operate in, it's not surprising at all that several of his victims probably knew each other, at least by sight. They inhabited the same lodging houses, drank in the same pubs, undoubtedly sometimes on the same days and nights, and tramped the same streets.

Hi Rosella

That's true. But would there have been other streets with lodging where unfortunates would also lodge ?

Also, the five killings were also in a close area of a square mile. Was this area the main spot were prostitutes worked ? Or were they spread across a larger area ? If he was looking for prostitutes, could he have gone to other areas ? Why such a small area ?

Rgds

Craig

[Craig H]

Following on from previous discussion about whether Jack knew his victims.

As mentioned, the victims lived close to each other:

• Mary Ann Nichols lived in August at the White House at 56 Flower and Dean Street and then Wilmott's Lodging House at 18 Thrawl Street, Spitalfields.
  
• Annie Chapman : Crossingham's Lodging House at 35 Dorset Street, Spitalfields,
  
• Liz Stride : 32 Flower and Dean Street.
  
• Catherine Eddowes : Cooney's Lodging House, 55 Flower and Dean Street
  
• Mary Jane Kelly : Miller's Court off Dorset Street.

Tom Wescott added that Polly Nichols was actually living with Annie Chapman at the time of her murder.

One counter-argument is that many unfortunates lived in lodging houses in these streets.

However, the other women suggested as possible Ripper victims lived outside that area:

• Martha Tabram - 19 George St, Spitalfields
• Frances Coleman - 8 Whites Riw, Spitalfields
• Alice McKenzie - Gun Street, Spitalfields
• Ada Wilson - 19 Maidman St, Mile End

Also, if we draw two arrows:

• One from where Stride was killed going to Church Lane (where there was a potential sighting of him)
• One from where Eddowes was killed going to Goulston Street where apron was found

Both arrows intersect around Flower and Dean Street

It seems too much of a coincidence that the victims all lived near to each other.

This could suggest he lived near the victims and knew them personally or by sight.

His familiarity with the women could explain how there was no struggle and the victims were willing to go with him into a dark spot. This could also explain potential sightings earlier in the night. Did he meet them and come back later?

Did he know them socially? Or professionally – if we think he had surgical skills – such as a doctor ?

[jerryd]

However, the other women suggested as possible Ripper victims lived outside that area:

• Martha Tabram - 19 George St, Spitalfields
• Frances Coleman - 8 Whites Riw, Spitalfields
• Alice McKenzie - Gun Street, Spitalfields
• Ada Wilson - 19 Maidman St, Mile End

Hi Craig,

Frances Coles

8, White's Row was across the street from Miller's Court. Annie Millwood was also attacked at this same location in Feb of 1888.

[Tom_Wescott]

Frances Coles was living at 18 Thrawl Street and may have known Polly Nichols and have gone to the mortuary to identify her. She was also possibly one of the 18 Thrawl Street women instrumental in the 'Leather Apron' scare. The most significant (in my opinion) address connection is in the earliest attacks which I document in my book. Emily Horsnell, Margaret Hames, Emma Smith, Martha Tabram...they all lived at 18 or 19 George Street (neighboring houses) at the time of their murder. Hames was viciously attacked but survived after spending a few weeks in hospital. These four events all occurred within 8 months of each other. They may be completely unrelated, or they may not be. Either way, it's an exceptional occurrence.

Polly Nichols death certificate gives her final address as 35 Dorset Street, the same place Annie Chapman was living and across the street from Mary Kelly. As I mention in my book, it was reported that Mary Kelly and Annie Chapman knew each other. None of this means the victims knew their killer, though I'd suggest it's possible the earliest of them did, and perhaps others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Craig H]

Hi Tom (and Jerry D)

Thanks for the additional information on connections between victims.

Tom, I'm still trying to get my head around whether the killer knew his victims from also living in the area, or whether it was just a co-incidence as most unfortunates lived in the same few streets. I would have thought unfortunates would have lived all across Whitechapel; or was the Flower & Dean / Thrawl St area where most of them lived ?

Did your research provide any insights here ?

All the best

Craig

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom (and Jerry D)

Thanks for the additional information on connections between victims.

Tom, I'm still trying to get my head around whether the killer knew his victims from also living in the area, or whether it was just a co-incidence as most unfortunates lived in the same few streets. I would have thought unfortunates would have lived all across Whitechapel; or was the Flower & Dean / Thrawl St area where most of them lived ?

Did your research provide any insights here ?

All the best

Craig

There's no reason to suspect these women were personally stalked and targeted. That's highly unlikely. But it's certainly possible he was personally familiar with at least one of them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

Polly Nichols death certificate gives her final address as 35 Dorset Street, the same place Annie Chapman was living and across the street from Mary Kelly. As I mention in my book, it was reported that Mary Kelly and Annie Chapman knew each other. None of this means the victims knew their killer, though I'd suggest it's possible the earliest of them did, and perhaps others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Wasn't 35 Dorset Street on the corner of Paternoster Row?

Generally assumed that Nichols death certificate,dated 25th September,had Chapman's address in error.

There are links to both Nichols,Eddowes (Conway) and JTR going back over 20 years.
Bit longer for Mary Ann Kelly.

[Tom_Wescott]

Generally assumed that Nichols death certificate,dated 25th September,had Chapman's address in error.

So had I, Deej. But I learned the coroner prepared the death certificate from the information submitted by the police. And it wasn't prepared at the same time as Chapman's, so there's little reason for error. The early police reports had her at the 'White House' basing that on the statement of her friend, but at the inquest the friend stated she didn't know where Polly had moved to, only that it allowed men and women to stay together, and Polly didn't like it there and wanted to leave. She had assumed it was the White House because they were co-ed. But so was 35 Dorset Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

That does not surprise me.

Suspect Eddowes returned from hopping a few days earlier than we believe.

Would coincide with Stride leaving Kidney.
Assume they were living in Dorset Street at the time.

[Tom_Wescott]

That does not surprise me.

Suspect Eddowes returned from hopping a few days earlier than we believe.

Would coincide with Stride leaving Kidney.
Assume they were living in Dorset Street at the time.

Suspect Eddowes? Why do you assume Eddowes and Stride were living on Dorset Street?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Craig H]

Hi Tom
Is there any way to identify who lived on a specific street ?
I know how to do this on findmypast - but this is only at the census time of April 1891.
Are there any other records on where people lived in 1888 ?
All the best

Craig