Ripper Facts

[Craig H]

Hi Jeff
Thanks for this. Sometimes seems that fact is stranger than fiction - both scenarios sounded like a book

All the best

Craig

[drstrange169]

Hello Craig,

I got the info from University of London archives, as i wrote, I don't know how complete they are.

And yes, it is graduates.

Link here:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Hi+DustyThis+is+interesting.+What+is+the+source+of+this+image+%3FIt+looks+like+a+record+of+University+graduates+%3F%3F%3FThis+suggests+Benjamin+did+not+complete+his+University+degree.Are+you+able+find+out+where+John+Orford+studied+Medicine+%3FI+think+Benjamin+may+be+the+%22Morford%22+mentioned+in+Sugden%27s+book.+Maybe+they+studied+together+%3FAll+the+bestCraig&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=I01nV5mEEKTM8gfU4IHoDQ

The only Orford I could find was much earlier,

[drstrange169]

>> ... cause of death is “died from accidental injuries caused by fall down stairs" ... Would it have been unusual to have an inquest for this death ?<<

Mandatory.


>> Does this mean the death was suspicious ? <<

Hence the need for an inquest, to determine if it was natural causes (i.e. Hearty attack on the stairs), accident (tripped) or something more sinister.



>>The reason of death of falling down stairs sounds strange.<<

Incredibly common cause of deaths, America alone, 12,000 a year. Famous fashion designer and chain store owner, Laura Ashley died falling down her stairs. One of my favourite 1960's 70's singer's, Sandy Denny died falling down stairs. There an excellent tv documentary series called, The Staircase dealing with the issue.

[Craig H]

Hi Dusty
Thanks for that.
Looks like John Orford studied elsewhere.
In 1881 Census, he is a medical student living at Lambeth, so possible he studied south of the river
All the best

Craig

[drstrange169]

There was a Doctor Neale working south of the river in the 1880's but he seems to have been older and there was a Doctor Neale working in Hammersmith at the same time. I don't have any Christain names for them.

[Sand87]

I don't think the organ trade had anything to do with JTR either, but since it is an excuse that's been paraded out before, I thought I'd throw it out there.

There was something definitely about the organs that had him all hot and bothered.

Columbo

The first organ transplant wasn't until the 1950's so...what organ trade?

[Errata]

The first organ transplant wasn't until the 1950's so...what organ trade?

In theory a trade for medical specimens. There is the idea that if a person needs a womb in a jar, that person might be persuaded to kill for it.

[DJA]

Have a good look at Henry Gawen Sutton.

[Sand87]

In theory a trade for medical specimens. There is the idea that if a person needs a womb in a jar, that person might be persuaded to kill for it.

Surely there are better ways than slaughtering women in fairly public places? Wouldn't you just dig up a grave , rob a mortuary or kill people in a much more subtle way so you could carry it on for a lot longer?

[Craig H]

This thread tried to focus on Ripper “facts” (those things more likely to be true).

This includes all victims were prostitutes.

The most credible witness who saw JTR were PC William Smith, Joseph Lawende and William Marshall. The consistent description was JTR was English, 28 – 35 years old, around 5’7”, pale complexion, small moustache, wore a peak cap and was not working class (Marshall heard him say "you would say anything but your dreams" and described him as educated). The other credible witness was the man in Church Lane.

The killers movements on the night of the Eddowes/ Stride killings suggest he was moving towards Whitechapel which implies he lived in Whitechapel.
FBI Profiling tools suggested he lived in an area with Flowers and Dean Street at the centre.

It would appear he knew the victims (even if only by sight) as the canonical 5 all lived close to each other. The witness descriptions suggest his victims were comfortable in his presence.

There is a strong argument supporting JTR had medical knowledge due to his ability to cut with purpose in a dark environment.

Ada Wilson was the first attack

I would now like to add another "fact" (I think it has validity but understand others see as speculation) that Ada Wilson was the first JTR attack in March 1888.

Others have suggested JTR had earlier attacks before the first canonical victim Nichols (August 1888).Options included Tabram, Smith, Wilson or Millwood

I think Ada Wilson is most likely as the witness description (25 to 30 years of age, medium height (about 5ft. 5in.), sunburnt face, fair moustache, and wore light trousers, a dark coat, and a wideawake hat) is similar to the above JTR description.

Wilson's claim that she was stabbed in the neck by a man knocking on her door demanding money was a lie to cover up that she was a prostitute.

The witness, Rose Biermann, who lived in the building, said Ada had frequent males visitors, her attacker had visited her several times before, the man was in her room then left in a hurry, and Ada was "partially dressed" when she chased after him.

This all suggests he stabbed her in the neck in her room.

Ada lived at Maidman Street (near Mile End Road and Burdett Road, Bow) which is a distance from where the canonical murders took place.

Debra Arif's research identified Ada Wilson as Ada Drew - a known thief who suffered from syphilis.

The description of a "sunburnt face" is unusual as it was March in London. Others have suggested he had rosacea, which was obvious as he had fair skin.

My hypothesis

JTR was a medical student or Doctor at a hospital. Ada Wilson's address was close to Mile End Infirmary (what is now Mile End Hospital). The canonical attacks were close to London hospital.

JTR was seeing Ada Wilson several times as a prostitute when he discovered he had syphilis. This led to him attacking Ada and then a broader attacks on prostitutes as vengeance.

He then lived in Whitechapel, and is likely to have known the prostitutes. He would have appeared non-threatening and may have been charming.

The murders ended due to the syphilis becoming worse, or he became aware of likelihood of being caught.

I think JTR was not a known suspect, but an "average" person.

I think he got away with it as police were looking at other profiles.



I’m sure there are lots of holes in the above argument. I’m interested in feedback from others.

All the best

Craig

[Pcdunn]

Very interesting, Craig.

The rosacea idea for a pale face seeming "sunburnt" could point to MJK's visitor with the "blotchy face". My friend is very fair-complected, and has rosacea which looks like a fresh sunburn (very pink) on their cheeks and nose. It appears during all seasons.

Other explanations for a "sunburnt" face could indicate a sailor or someone from an home in Australia, South America, or the countries of the Mediterranean. However, they might seem to be more tanned, than sunburnt.

[Craig H]

Hi Pat

I agree with you that it is more likely a skin condition than actual sunburnt.

If he had travelled from Australia, Americas, etc then it would have taken a while (weeks ?) to arrive in London which makes you think the sunburn would have faded.

Also, weather wasn't hot enough in London in March 1888 to be sunburnt.

Maybe it was rosacea. I also understand this condition gets worse / more visible when someone is stressed ?

Rgds
Craig

[jerryd]

Hi Craig,

Interesting thoughts. As far as the sunburnt face goes, anyone outdoors for a period of time, even in March, can get sunburnt. Especially with fair skin. People on or near the river, outdoor workers or hawkers might be some examples. I also addressed a few items you brought up below.

This thread tried to focus on Ripper “facts” (those things more likely to be true).

This includes all victims were prostitutes.

Many will argue with you on this point, Craig.

The most credible witness who saw JTR were PC William Smith, Joseph Lawende and William Marshall. The consistent description was JTR was English, 28 – 35 years old, around 5’7”, pale complexion, small moustache, wore a peak cap and was not working class (Marshall heard him say "you would say anything but your dreams" and described him as educated). The other credible witness was the man in Church Lane.

Again many will argue this point as well. I'm not 100% sure the man and woman Lawende saw were Kate and her killer. For that matter, I'm not sure any of the witnesses with 100% surety saw the killer.

The killers movements on the night of the Eddowes/ Stride killings suggest he was moving towards Whitechapel which implies he lived in Whitechapel.
FBI Profiling tools suggested he lived in an area with Flowers and Dean Street at the centre.

He was definitely moving toward Whitechapel from Mitre Square but where he headed from there nobody knows.

It would appear he knew the victims (even if only by sight) as the canonical 5 all lived close to each other. The witness descriptions suggest his victims were comfortable in his presence.

I've always believed this too. They all frequented some of the same workhouses as well. Sometimes at the same time. Debs posted on one of the forums an article that stated, IIRC, 5 of the Whitechapel victims were in Millbank prison. I have also found a news article that stated Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly were friends.

There is a strong argument supporting JTR had medical knowledge due to his ability to cut with purpose in a dark environment.

Depends on which Doctor you ask. I believe it was Monty that stated Mitre Square wasn't as dark as we think it was.

Ada Wilson was the first attack

Debs has posted some great info on Ada Wilson, as you mentioned.

[Abby Normal]

the time of year or place dosnt really preclude anyone from getting sunburnt-just amount of time outside and skin type.

I don't really have a problem with most of what you write Craig. The only thing is that he really said "you would say anything but your prayers". not dreams. which is an important point when trying to figure out what was going on between the ripper and stride.

I would say he might or might not have known, even casually, his victims, but I think he probably knew mary Kelly.

They all at some point, engaged in prostitution, but I don't think MK or Stride were actively prostituting the night of there murders.

contracting the disease might have been the trigger for the attacks, but the real motivation was that he liked cutting up, cutting into and taking body parts from women.

[Craig H]

Hi Patrick
Some good stuff here.
I thought the 5 canonical victims were all prostitutes ?? Must be a blind spot on my side, I'll revisit this.
Are you saying they were't prostitutes, or they weren't soliciting on the night ?
Interesting about what you say on the connections between the victims . I'll try and find Debra's post on how the 5 victims knew each other.
Can you post that article you mentioned ?
All interesting
Craig