Ripper Facts

[Pierre]

It’s probably time to wrap up this thread as it’s gone as fare as it can.

What I tried to do was focus on what we know, or think we know, about the Ripper and use this to try and narrow down the list of potential persons of interest.

Witness statements (in particular PC Smith, Lawende and Marshall) suggest Jack was English, 28 – 35 years old, around 5’7”, pale complexion, small moustache and not working class.

It appears he lived or worked locally and knew the victims as they all lived close to each other. Many others have said he must have known the area well.

I think he must have had good social skills to be able for his victims to be comfortable with him (as seen in witness statements).

I also think he gave them gifts (such as the cigarette case, bonnet and the red handkerchief)

From some of the coroners and posts from others, I think he had surgical skills. Like others, I find it hard to believe he could have made the cuts and remove organs in the dark in such short time without previous surgical experience. Also, I think his “purpose” was to remove organs and show off his skills.

I identified Benjamin Neale who met the above criteria.

That’s not to say I think Neale is the Ripper. There is nothing to suggest he had any motive. He is more likely to simply be a surgeon who fell on hard times.

However it makes you think that the Ripper may be someone who has been an unknown, and was not an identified person of interest by police at the time.

Hi Craig,

If he gave them gifts, what would his purpose have been for deliberately leaving those gifts on the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

[MsWeatherwax]

Hypothetically speaking - because he had no further use for them.

Not so much with the smaller items, but I'd say a man walking through Whitechapel shortly after a murder holding a woman's bonnet might attract the wrong kind of attention.

If you want to get *really* esoteric about it, I remember a Pagan group in my teens who believed that if you took something from nature, you should leave something in 'payment' (if they cut plants for ritual purposes, they would pour milk around the base of the stem). Before anyone says it, I don't believe that's what he was doing and no...I have no idea why a plant would want milk.

[Tom_Wescott]

I've not read anything about a red handkerchief being found in Kelly's room. Only that Hutch said he saw her given one. Polly's birthday was a week before her death and I'd wager she had received or purchased her used (not new) bonnet at that time. A cigarette case could have been stolen or received in lieu of payment from any client at any time. Nothing to suggest the victims received gifts. However, given that was the idea, I'm surprised cachous weren't mentioned.

Having said that, Craig's line of enquiry is very strong. A failed surgeon or surgical student is completely sensible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

I couldn't find him at the Uni but, I don't know how through their records are or if he finished his course..

[Craig H]

Hi Dusty
This is interesting. What is the source of this image ?
It looks like a record of University graduates ???
This suggests Benjamin did not complete his University degree.
Are you able find out where John Orford studied Medicine ?
I think Benjamin may be the "Morford" mentioned in Sugden's book. Maybe they studied together ?
All the best
Craig

[Craig H]

Hi Craig,

If he gave them gifts, what would his purpose have been for deliberately leaving those gifts on the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre

The gifts ideas was not mine - someone else had mentioned it before but it makes sense to me.

I think Jack gave small gifts or was generous to his victims as a way to gain their confidence, or alternatively he knew them.

I don't think he deliberately left it at the murder sites

Craig

[Mayerling]

Hi Craig,

If he gave them gifts, what would his purpose have been for deliberately leaving those gifts on the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

I am curious Pierre, what would your ideas be if his purpose had been to deliberately leave those gifts on the murders sites?

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Craig H]

Benjamin Neale - death certificate

Something interesting on Benjamin Neale's death certificate from June 1899.

He died at Kinver, Staffordshire - which is where his brother Raglan lived as a publican. Maybe Benjamin went to live with his brother.

Benjamin's occupation is listed as "chemist". This is the the same occupation his father Thomas had when he died in 1886. Benjamin's brothers - Duncan and Moses - also both listed their occupation as "chemist and veterinary surgeon" but lived at their home town of Sherston, Wiltshire.

However, what is interesting is the cause of death is “died from accidental injuries caused by fall down stairs”

The Informant section records “Certificate received from W.H. Phillips, Coroner for Staffordshire. Inquest held 13 June"

Would it have been unusual to have an inquest for this death ?

Does this mean the death was suspicious ? The reason of death of falling down stairs sounds strange.

Any ideas on where to look to find any details from the inquest ? I suspect the records don't exist now ?

[Mayerling]

Something interesting on Benjamin Neale's death certificate from June 1899.

He died at Kinver, Staffordshire - which is where his brother Raglan lived as a publican. Maybe Benjamin went to live with his brother.

Benjamin's occupation is listed as "chemist". This is the the same occupation his father Thomas had when he died in 1886. Benjamin's brothers - Duncan and Moses - also both listed their occupation as "chemist and veterinary surgeon" but lived at their home town of Sherston, Wiltshire.

However, what is interesting is the cause of death is “died from accidental injuries caused by fall down stairs”

The Informant section records “Certificate received from W.H. Phillips, Coroner for Staffordshire. Inquest held 13 June"

Would it have been unusual to have an inquest for this death ?

Does this mean the death was suspicious ? The reason of death of falling down stairs sounds strange.

Any ideas on where to look to find any details from the inquest ? I suspect the records don't exist now ?

Hi Craig,

Honestly I could not say where such inquest records are (if they exist), but I suspect they'd be in Staffordshire, where the coroner was (and where the inquest probably was).

Accidental deaths or suspicious ones inevitably required an inquest. I have been looking occasionally at a set of deaths involving two brothers, Philip Carpenter and Lant Carpenter, both of whom died within a year of each other - presumably both died suicides. Philip died first, of poisoning, in January 1891, and Lant died by a gun shot wound about fifteen months later. I know there was an inquest on Lant's death, as I saw some reports of it in the newspapers. I have never seen the actual inquest papers though.

Jeff

[Pcdunn]

Craig, try looking at newspapers in Staffordshire, from towns near where Neale's death took place. Can't guarantee you'll find anything, but news articles are great possibilities for learning more details re a death or an investigation.

Your friendly librarian,

[Pierre]

I am curious Pierre, what would your ideas be if his purpose had been to deliberately leave those gifts on the murders sites?

Best wishes,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I don´t think he did.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Craig H]

Craig, try looking at newspapers in Staffordshire, from towns near where Neale's death took place. Can't guarantee you'll find anything, but news articles are great possibilities for learning more details re a death or an investigation.

Your friendly librarian,

Many thanks friendly librarian ..... can you also tell others to keep the noise down .... I'm trying to read ...

Craig

[Debra A]

Something interesting on Benjamin Neale's death certificate from June 1899.

He died at Kinver, Staffordshire - which is where his brother Raglan lived as a publican. Maybe Benjamin went to live with his brother.

Benjamin's occupation is listed as "chemist". This is the the same occupation his father Thomas had when he died in 1886. Benjamin's brothers - Duncan and Moses - also both listed their occupation as "chemist and veterinary surgeon" but lived at their home town of Sherston, Wiltshire.

However, what is interesting is the cause of death is “died from accidental injuries caused by fall down stairs”

The Informant section records “Certificate received from W.H. Phillips, Coroner for Staffordshire. Inquest held 13 June"

Would it have been unusual to have an inquest for this death ?

Does this mean the death was suspicious ? The reason of death of falling down stairs sounds strange.

Any ideas on where to look to find any details from the inquest ? I suspect the records don't exist now ?

Hi Craig

Weirdly, Coroner Phillips himself died the following month and an inquest was held because he died from injuries received in a fall over a chair on June 15th.
I couldn't find anything about Ben Neale's death in the papers I have access to but I'm sure there must have been something reported locally as someone already mentioned.

[Craig H]

Hi Debra

What is it about people falling down stairs and falling off chairs back then ???

I've watched too many gangster movies when "falling down stairs" was a metaphor for "beaten up".

Thanks for looking for Ben Neale's death details. I couldn't find anything on Britishnewspapers archive. I'll contact the local Staffordshire genealogy office to see if they have anything.

All the best

Craig

[Mayerling]

Hi Debra

What is it about people falling down stairs and falling off chairs back then ???

I've watched too many gangster movies when "falling down stairs" was a metaphor for "beaten up".

Thanks for looking for Ben Neale's death details. I couldn't find anything on Britishnewspapers archive. I'll contact the local Staffordshire genealogy office to see if they have anything.

All the best

Craig

Hi Craig,

It is an old sense of suspicion we all show at times about the "untimely" death of an individual due to any kind of convenient accident. Sometimes investigation will lead to a major homicide case. Two come to mind in this period, both in Scotland.

In June 1889, during the start of the summer holiday season, Edward Rose was on the Isle of Arran visiting a high mountain spot, when he fell to his death. His body was found to have been buried under some nearby rocks, showing a second party was involved. Eventually it turned out that Rose had met another man, apparently visiting the island on a holiday named John Watson Laurie. Laurie, unlike Rose, was not doing very well financially, and in tracing him the authorities discovered he pilfered various items that belonged to Rose. He had also accompanied Rose up the mountain. For about two weeks Laurie was sought in England (where he fled) and he was captured the same week that the trial of Florence Maybrick was reaching it's conclusion, and the Pilchin Street murder occurred. Laurie was taken back to Scotland, and after a trial, convicted of Rose's murder. The death sentence on him was reduced, as the evidence (while strong on theft) was not totally strong on homicide. His sentence was to prison for life. Except for an attempted escape in 1910, he remained in prison until his death in 1930. Recent accounts feel that it was fortunate for Laurie that the sentence was reduced, as the evidence of murder is weak.

2) Only four years later occurred another "Highland accident" case, only involving a "shooting accident". A young man named Cecil Hambrough was invited to a shooting and sports weekend up at Ardlamont by his tutor, Alfred Monson. Monson was a dubious type, frequently involved in con-games as a planner. During the weekend, where the others in the country house (besides Monson and the staff) included Monson's wife, and a third man, who kept a low profile and later vanished for several months. The weekend did not go well, as Cecil almost drowned in a boating accident, and then came a shooting accident (supposedly when his gun went off near a wall he was climbing). The authorities again got suspicious due to Mr. Monson's checkered past, and the discovery that there were several life insurance policies on poor Cecil's life (all with accidental death coverage, of course), but in the name of Monson's wife as beneficiary. Monson was put on trial in 1894, and Ardlamont went down in judicial history as one of those battles of the experts (the crown, by the way, used Dr. Sir Harvey Littlejohn showing the trajectory of the bullets through a model of Cecil's head, and also Dr. Joseph Bell - the original of Sherlock Holmes). However it was so conflicting that Monson did not get convicted - it was one of those classic "Scot Verdict" cases of "Not Proven". Most people today feel Monson and his pal did plan and carry out a murder here, but got away with it.

Jeff