Ripper Facts

[Craig H]

Hi Craig

If the Swanson marginalia is to be believed then Lawende, (in my opinion the only witness to get a reasonably good look at the Ripper) spoke of him as being Jewish.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

The dissertation in Casebook http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...n-who-saw.html said Lawende's description was :
‘Age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.’

My understanding was there was reluctance to identify the person as they thought he was a Jew, however the above description. Seems like an English man and is similar the the Marshall and Smith statements.

All the best

Craig

[Craig H]

Likely to have surgical skills or anatomy knowledge (coroners)

If he was a medical doctor, working in one of the hospitals in the East End, then could he have had a lodging on the hospital premises?

Hi TTaylor
I'm not sure whether surgeons lived on the hospital grounds or not - others may know.
However, if that was true, then it's another reason to suspect he was not employed at a hospital as a surgeon (along with the fact he was living in a poor area - not what was expected of a surgeon)
All the best
Craig

[Craig H]

I wonder if Neal could be the surgeon / medical student Sugden mentions in his book.

One story I introduced on another thread was Sugden's mention of the article from the Star (below) newspaper of September 24, 1888, about a pawnbroker who had a suspicious looking person called "Morford" living at a lodging house in Great Ormond Road, who pledged some surgical instruments.

This person allegedly had lost respect from others through drink, and had quickly left his lodging.

Sugden speculated that this could be surgeon John Orford, who was living on Great Ormond Rd. However, his late. Census records and mention in newspaper show he had a respected job. At the hospital so unlikely to be a down and out surgeon.

However, it could better describe Neale ???

The Star article is below :

Is It a Clue?
Some one representing himself as a detective called at a number of boarding establishments in Great Ormonde-street on Saturday afternoon, making inquiries for a man by the name of Morford, who was supposed to have had lodgings in that street up to 10 Sept., but who since that time has mysteriously disappeared. At some of the places called at the detective said something about a letter having been received by the authorities which led to the idea that Morford might throw some light on the Whitechapel murders. He was described as a man who had been educated as a surgeon, but who had lost standing in the community through drink. It seems that attention was directed to him through a pawnbroker, who took several surgical instruments in pledge from him, and who afterwards had reason to suspect that he was not of sound mind. A shopkeeper in Great Ormonde-street thought he knew the man who was being searched for, but as the detective had no address but "Morford, Great Ormonde-street," he was not able to make much progress without letting the whole neighborhood know what he was about.

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

The dissertation in Casebook http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...n-who-saw.html said Lawende's description was :
‘Age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.’

My understanding was there was reluctance to identify the person as they thought he was a Jew, however the above description. Seems like an English man and is similar the the Marshall and Smith statements.

All the best

Craig

Hi Craig

Yes the inference is that Lawende was reluctant to identify Kosminski as this would lead to his eventual execution. Of course, the Ripper as a Jewish man, in the person of Kosminski, is not everyone's cup of tea. I believe Kosminski is at present seventh in popularity in a poll carried out here in Casebook, however, with Maybrick, Tumbelty and Sickert comprising the top three candidates, I'd take this poll with a pinch of salt.

I personally believe that Kosminski is the nearest we have got to identifying the Ripper. It appears Swanson thought as much. Kosminski also features in Macnaghten's list. Who knows, it's possible that some compelling article of evidence might be out there which confirms his guilt. One thing is certain, and this gives him a certain amount of status above and beyond most of the suspects, is that he was a genuine person of interest at the time of the crimes.

Regarding Marshal, and Smiths suspects, in my opinion, (and I do believe Liz Stride was soliciting on the night of her murder) there was time for another individual to have approached enticed and killed her, after PC Smith's suspect had left the scene. Also lets not forget, Mr's long's sighting of "a foreign looking man", in the company of Annie Chapman shortly before her murder.

Regards

Observer

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby
Thanks - where do I search for criminal record ??
All the best

Craig

Id ask Debra for that one-research is not my thing.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

What might be the evidence for this?

Regards, Pierre

There is to much to post and has been discussed many times over the past few years on here. But all is contained in both my book Jack the Ripper The Secret Police files. and my DVD Jack the Ripper-A 21st Century Investigation

Both available from my website www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Craig H]

Nice!!!

Criminal record?

Hi Abby,

Debs has been very helpful in suggesting research ideas (many thanks Debs)

Benjamin Neal has no criminal record (Findmypast - Prison Records).

I also searched on BritishNewspaperarchives to see if there was any mention as University Exam results. No results.

I think the signs are he was delusional and claimed to be a surgeon. He was also old (31 years) to be a Medical Student in 1881 Census.

However, this delusion state could explain his motive for the killings - it was a way to show the world he was a surgeon.

All the best

Craig

[Craig H]

Regarding Marshal, and Smiths suspects, in my opinion, (and I do believe Liz Stride was soliciting on the night of her murder) there was time for another individual to have approached enticed and killed her, after PC Smith's suspect had left the scene. Also lets not forget, Mr's long's sighting of "a foreign looking man", in the company of Annie Chapman shortly before her murder.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer

The area of witnesses is complex - where were CCTV cameras when you needed them ??

There were some people -including Mrs Long - who referred to a "foreign" man. It's a tough one.

I think the references to the peak cap man are more consistent, and closer to the murder time, that it's probably the one. However, open to interpretation.

I also think the man in Church Lane shortly after the Stride killing was the Ripper, and he appears to be the peak cap man.

All the best

Craig

[David Orsam]

Benjamin Neal has no criminal record (Findmypast - Prison Records).

I just want to say that Findmypast only shows criminal records of individuals tried at the Sessions or the Assizes (to the extent that the police were able to confirm their identity). Someone with multiple convictions at a Police Court would fly below the current online radar.

[David Orsam]

Also, if the medical registers being searched are from Ancestry (which I wasn't even aware were there until now), it should be noted that there is a gap in the registers for the three years from 1880 to 1882 and for the three years from 1884 to 1886 and then a further gap for the three years from 1888 to 1890 so if someone only appeared in the registers during one of those periods they wouldn't be picked up in a search.

[Wickerman]

Regarding Marshal, and Smiths suspects, in my opinion, (and I do believe Liz Stride was soliciting on the night of her murder) there was time for another individual to have approached enticed and killed her, after PC Smith's suspect had left the scene.

Hi Obs.

If we only "knew" whether PC Smith's suspect did the scene...

[Debra A]

Also, if the medical registers being searched are from Ancestry (which I wasn't even aware were there until now), it should be noted that there is a gap in the registers for the three years from 1880 to 1882 and for the three years from 1884 to 1886 and then a further gap for the three years from 1888 to 1890 so if someone only appeared in the registers during one of those periods they wouldn't be picked up in a search.

Definitely. I try to explain the result limitations when helping people out with ideas of where to look. There are also missing years from 83 onwards for the electoral roles for the address Neal was registered at in 1881 in both the electorals and the census which I've mentioned. I've also suggested using newspapers to look for exam qualification announcements, which was usually done, as a wider search. There has to be flexibility in any search and I'm just trying to give Craig ideas of where to look. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence is something we should all take into account but I know seasoned posters who disregard this and get carried away. I don't know Craig's level of research skill or knowledge so I just respond with help when he asks for ideas, whilst trying not to appear patronising.

[Craig H]

Also, if the medical registers being searched are from Ancestry (which I wasn't even aware were there until now), it should be noted that there is a gap in the registers for the three years from 1880 to 1882 and for the three years from 1884 to 1886 and then a further gap for the three years from 1888 to 1890 so if someone only appeared in the registers during one of those periods they wouldn't be picked up in a search.

Hi David
Thanks for the advice on medical records and criminal records.
So is the only way to access the medical register for 1880 - 18882 to go to the British Library in London ?
All the best

Craig

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Obs.

If we only "knew" whether PC Smith's suspect did the scene...

Suspect or person of interest ? Care should be exercised when using the term suspect, they are worlds apart.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Observer

The area of witnesses is complex - where were CCTV cameras when you needed them ??

There were some people -including Mrs Long - who referred to a "foreign" man. It's a tough one.

I think the references to the peak cap man are more consistent, and closer to the murder time, that it's probably the one. However, open to interpretation.

I also think the man in Church Lane shortly after the Stride killing was the Ripper, and he appears to be the peak cap man.

All the best

Craig

Craig
Care should be taken when trying to match descriptions of men seen either talking to Stride or being in the area at the time of the murder, the same applies to all the victims.

If Stride was soliciting in the street, then it is likely that she would have accosted almost every man who came by. That being said any description of anyone seen talking to her or being in the area at the time must be treated with caution. She could have accosted the killer at a time when no witnesses were in a position to see this, or observe the killer at the scene.

I also think that she could have been using the dark area located around the stables area to take punters to. If that is correct then the location of body might suggest that her murder was not part of the series but simply domestic related as Don Rumbelow suggested all those years ago. It was too close to the street and too risky for a killer to want to carry out the same mutilations and organs removal as with the others.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk