Ripper Facts

[Tom_Wescott]

Cheers for that, Tom - I'll check it out.

I did my own bit of digging, and found a reference to an East London Observer interview with Clark, in which he ventured the personal opinion - apparently separate from Phillips - that three murders may have been committed by the same hand. Unfortunately, he doesn't specify which.

2008, eh? Them were the days. Some interesting characters posting back then who aren't so active nowadays. There was "Mr. Poster", whose contributions ensured that Fisherman was only the second most annoying Scandinavian ripperologist at the time.

(Just kidding, Fish!)

I seem to recall you rather had your hands full on the Kelly threads back in those days!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Cheers for that, Tom - I'll check it out.

I did my own bit of digging, and found a reference to an East London Observer interview with Clark, in which he ventured the personal opinion - apparently separate from Phillips - that three murders may have been committed by the same hand. Unfortunately, he doesn't specify which.

2008, eh? Them were the days. Some interesting characters posting back then who aren't so active nowadays. There was "Mr. Poster", whose contributions ensured that Fisherman was only the second most annoying Scandinavian ripperologist at the time.

(Just kidding, Fish!)

[Tom_Wescott]

Ben,

I did a quick search of the Casebook to see if the interview is posted here. One of the things that came up was an exchange between you and me from 2008 where you asked me for the same source. LOL. I referred you then to Evans/Rumbelow's Scotland Yard Investigates, so I suppose that would still be the best place to seek out the Clark interview.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

According to Percy Clark, Dr. Phillips was of the opinion, medically speaking, that Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were by the same hand.

Thanks for this, Tom.

Do you know where I can find the Percy Clark quote/article?

Hi Craig,

Are you saying that most Coroners / doctors who examined the bodies believed the killer had no surgical knowledge; or are you just referring to a few ?

It's a tricky one, owing to the fact that the coroners and doctors had such divergent opinions with regard to which victims were murdered by which hand. My own view on the subject - which takes on board criminological as well as medical considerations (or at least tries to!) - is that Tabram and McKenzie should be considered possible ripper victims; as such, the preponderance of medical evidence is certainly to the effect that "the killer" had very little anatomical skill, although he was "no stranger to the knife".

All the best,
Ben

[Craig H]

Hi Craig,
Actually, Dr. Brown was effectively outnumbered 3 to 1 in his determination that Eddowes' killer had anatomical knowledge; neither Sequeira nor Saunders detected any, and both men examined the body as medical "experts".
Ben

Hi Ben
Thanks for this.
Are you saying that most Coroners / doctors who examined the bodies believed the killer had no surgical knowledge; or are you just referring to a few ?
I haven't had a chance to look through all the opinions of those who examined the bodies.
I know it was a divisive issue back then, as it is now
Rgds
Craig

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ben, that's not entirely accurate. According to Percy Clark, Dr. Phillips was of the opinion, medically speaking, that Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were by the same hand. This does not mean that he thought Stride and Eddowes were not, simply that he couldn't conclude on medical evidence that they were, but understood that the police also considered other factors in their decisions.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Hi Craig,

Dr Thomas Bond conducted the postmortem on the obliterated body of Mary Jane Kelly, and he is the only one of 4 experts who disagreed that the killer had anatomical knowledge

Actually, Dr. Brown was effectively outnumbered 3 to 1 in his determination that Eddowes' killer had anatomical knowledge; neither Sequeira nor Saunders detected any, and both men examined the body as medical "experts". Phillips also attended the autopsy, and doubtless influenced coroner Baxter's verdict that she was slain by an unskilled imitator. The notion that the medicos angling for "the ripper" having anatomical skill were somehow in the majority is clearly erroneous, although it has persisted for years. In reality, one doctor was impressed in the case of one victim, while another doctor was impressed in the case of another.

Curiously, many people who are quite happy to reject Bond's opinions - as they relate to medical knowledgeable, or lack thereof - in favour of Phillips's, seem to prefer Bond's (now very mainstream) canonically-inclined view on victim linkage. Phillips was famously doubtful that they were committed by the same perpetrator, and there is no evidence that he considered Chapman's mutilator to have been responsible for any other murder. This is glossed over by many, for some reason, and the attitude seems to be one of "yes, well he's obviously wrong about that, but he simply can't be wrong about the surgical skill stuff".

The pelvic organs were not secured with "one sweep of the knife", nor could they have been.

All the best,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

For what it's worth, the vast majority of investigators felt the Ripper had some sort of anatomical knowledge and was certainly comfortable in his use of a knife. Not the same as say 'surgical skill', though, which would suggest he had experience in performing legitimate surgery.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Craig H]

Did Jack have surgical skills ?

In trying to narrow the focus on who Jack was, I keep coming back to the question on whether he had surgical skills.

There was a view from the coroners that he did.

If so, could t the original idea from that time that the Ripper was a surgeon be correct ?

The following is from a good summary article at

http://www.thewhitechapelmurders.com/observations/second-observations/

“Dr. Llewellyn on Mary Ann Nichols was of the opinion that the murderer had some anatomical knowledge since “he had attacked all of the vital parts.”

Dr Phillips on Annie Chapman, taken from The Lancet: “Obviously the work was that of an expert, of one, at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be able to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of a knife.”
Also “I myself could not have performed all of the injuries I saw on that woman, even without a struggle, in under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in the deliberate manner usual with a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour.”

Dr Frederick Gordon Brown at the inquest of Catherine Eddowes: “The way in which the kidney was cut out showed that it was done by somebody who knew what he was about.”
Questioned by the coroner on whether the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill: “He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.”
Questioned by the coroner on whether the removal of the kidney, for example, would require special knowledge: “It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.”

Dr Thomas Bond conducted the postmortem on the obliterated body of Mary Jane Kelly, and he is the only one of 4 experts who disagreed that the killer had anatomical knowledge, he said, after also reviewing the previous 4 suspected murder victims of Jack The Ripper: “In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.””

[Tom_Wescott]

Kidney gave his address as 38 Dorset Street at the October 3 Inquest.
Right next door to Thomas Bowyer.

Didn't assume Eddowes was living in Dorset Street,although there is a "tradition" that she did at one time.

My memory is horrendous, but I recall there was confusion in the press as to what street Kidney gave as his address, and Dorset Street was the least likely. But I'd have to look that up to be sure.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

Suspect Eddowes? Why do you assume Eddowes and Stride were living on Dorset Street?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Kidney gave his address as 38 Dorset Street at the October 3 Inquest.
Right next door to Thomas Bowyer.

Didn't assume Eddowes was living in Dorset Street,although there is a "tradition" that she did at one time.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom
Is there any way to identify who lived on a specific street ?
I know how to do this on findmypast - but this is only at the census time of April 1891.
Are there any other records on where people lived in 1888 ?
All the best

Craig

If they had a business there are directories. Otherwise there are infirmary and Hospital records, where addresses are generally listed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Craig H]

Hi Tom
Is there any way to identify who lived on a specific street ?
I know how to do this on findmypast - but this is only at the census time of April 1891.
Are there any other records on where people lived in 1888 ?
All the best

Craig

[Tom_Wescott]

That does not surprise me.

Suspect Eddowes returned from hopping a few days earlier than we believe.

Would coincide with Stride leaving Kidney.
Assume they were living in Dorset Street at the time.

Suspect Eddowes? Why do you assume Eddowes and Stride were living on Dorset Street?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

That does not surprise me.

Suspect Eddowes returned from hopping a few days earlier than we believe.

Would coincide with Stride leaving Kidney.
Assume they were living in Dorset Street at the time.