Domestic or lunatic?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

You swedes and turnips do my head in, attempting to apply murder cases from your own barmy communities where you only see sun light for half a year, and to get at alcohol you have to take a ferry to the Fatherland.
You bastards designed the Volvo to cause accidents.

Firstly, mr Spanish Brandy,

We have sun light just as long as every other country - don't insult your own intelligence by falling for ignorant, stupid myths.

Secondly, Volvo is a safe car.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I have a feeling that those beers won´t go down silently...

Hahaha.

Well, I think many of those point - especially regarding the alleged similarites in mutilations - have been debated over before so I will only stick to a couple of them:

-- I do think trying to theorize about the definiton of Kelly's 'fondness' of Fleming is arguing about semantics. In those days and in such environments, relationship could get rather rough and I expect that the 'tough love' Mary Kelly might have been subjected to could have done very little to destroy her fondness for Fleming.
Of course there is also the possibility that Mary Kelly's fondness of him really was all about the fact that he gave her money, and that she really didn't care for him more than that although she tried to give another impression to him and her closest friends.

I don't like speaking ill of the dead - and of course I could be wrong - but I see Mary Kelly as very manipulating, as someone who tried to sit on two chairs at the same time. Which is why she continued to live with Barnett even though she doesn't appears to really have cared about him - her relationship with Barnett was probably all about money and getting a roof over head (while it no doubt was more to him).
people are often speaking of Mary Kelly being 'romanticized', and I think it's important to remember that Mary kelly was a prostitute and as such most likely a rather tough woman, who did everything in her power to survive. And probably used people - preferably men - along the way.
And as I said - it is my belief that she had to pay for it in the end.

-- Just one last point about Hedin.
It is important to remember that Hedin's motive for murdering his parents was not because he felt 'ashamed' of his crimes himself, but in order to save THEM from the shame (at least that is how he reasoned in his own mind) when he realized that there was no turning back. I fail to see that in the presumed Ripper-Fleming scenario.

All the best

[Cap'n Jack]

You swedes and turnips do my head in, attempting to apply murder cases from your own barmy communities where you only see sun light for half a year, and to get at alcohol you have to take a ferry to the Fatherland.
You bastards designed the Volvo to cause accidents.

[Fisherman]

Beer it is, Glenn; I will try and get hold of you later this week!

On the issue of Fleming as the Ripper and your objections, I´ll list them and deal with them:

1. "I think this very strange and exhaustive need to turn him into a serial killer is based on the all too common belief that only serial killers are capable of crimes like the one performed by Kelly's murderer."

Not in my case, it ain´t, Glenn; I readily recognize that the type of murder that Kelly represents could well be the work of a spouse who kills only once. No problems there! But what I am suggesting is that if Fleming was indeed the Ripper - something of which I hold no certainty whatsoever, I´m just theorizing here - then he would NOT have had Kelly on his striking list until he believed that he would be exposed as the Ripper.

2. "I am also a bit surprised over the following sentence:
"Now, women who are truly fond of a man, are generally not women who are abused and beaten up by this self same guy, something that has often been suggested in this case, due to the "ill-use" reference. Instead, they would in the normal case be returning sentiments that are there on behalf of the man they are involved with, would they not?"

I have to say that is totally erronous and untrue, since - and I think you know this as well as I do - that abused women often tend to defend and even have very strong emotional or passional bonds towards their abuser. That is what makes many domestic cases so difficult to understand."

Absolutely correct, Glenn; the failure to recognize this is what makes many a poster incapable of seeing the mechanisms I suggest as vital behind the Stride murder, so I am well aware of it.
But in this case I am not suggesting some sort of "folie d´amour", if you take my meaning. And it all owes to some extent to semantics (making me a sitting duck, should that be your wish). You see, I think that the kind of bonds that prevents a beaten woman from leaving her tormentor could be described as a distorted form of love - but in this case we are speaking of fondness! And to me, being fond of somebody points to a much more peaceful affection.
Be that as it may, there is no reason to forget that most affectionate relationships involve two people who DONT abuse and beat up on each other, and as has previously been shown, the term ill-use need not involve any physical violence at all - just as it may have been a lie on Kellys behalf when associating with Venturney. We simply don´t know.
But we DO know that there are similarities between for example Chapman and Kelly when it comes to removing the abdomen in flaps, perhaps - and I am only saying perhaps - indicating a relationship. And of course, the other well known common denominators are there, like the cut in the throat and the notches in the backbone. This all means that a very strong case always can be made for the same killer being responsible for both deeds!

3. "Furthermore, there is of course no need to attribute Fleming's (or John Evans') later paranoid delusions to anything concerning the Ripper murders, since such mental illnesses can appear without any valid reason at all."

Of course, Glenn. But if Kelly was killed by a man who was the terror of London, and who was anxious not to let her find out about it - the way Hedin killed his parents out of shame for his deeds - then the mixture of delusions of persecution and mania is a very, very compelling one, and one that fits the bill very neatly. And the fact that Flemings plasterer´s occupation goes down the drain starting somewhere about the time of the Ripper deeds is likewise much interesting, I think.

I have a feeling that those beers won´t go down silently...

The best, Glenn!

Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Fisherman!

I see what you're getting at with the Hedin example - indeed - but I have to say that I don't believe for a minute that Fleming was Jack the Ripper. I think this very strange and exhaustive need to turn him into a serial killer is based on the all too common belief that only serial killers are capable of crimes like the one performed by Kelly's murderer. Personally, I don't see any valid reasons to construct any theories in such direction.

I am also a bit surprised over the following sentence:
"Now, women who are truly fond of a man, are generally not women who are abused and beaten up by this self same guy, something that has often been suggested in this case, due to the "ill-use" reference. Instead, they would in the normal case be returning sentiments that are there on behalf of the man they are involved with, would they not?"

I have to say that is totally erronous and untrue, since - and I think you know this as well as I do - that abused women often tend to defend and even have very strong emotional or passional bonds towards their abuser. That is what makes many domestic cases so difficult to understand. So of course abused women can be fond of men who abuses them - I have seen this numerous times and it is also a commonly known, although I admit illogical, phenomenon.
Furthermore, there is of course no need to attribute Fleming's (or John Evans') later paranoid delusions to anything concerning the Ripper murders, since such mental illnesses can appear without any valid reason at all.

But indeed, I'll gladly take you up on the beer in a local pub. The stormy, grey weather - which I find quite cosy at the moment - really invites to it, don't you think? You know where to find me.

All the best

[Fisherman]

Hi Glenn! Good to hear from you!

You write - with a subtle touch of irony, if I am not much mistaken - "OK, I think I lost Fleming somewhere in all this... "

I´m not so sure of that, Glenn. In fact, taking a closer look at things, Hedin may be a key to a possible solution involving Fleming that at least I had not thought of before!

Here it is: I have always had trouble with the differing characters of the first victims compared to the much younger and probably more attractive Kelly. And I have never been able to come up with a motive that has made any sense.
Maybe, though, Hedin offers a possible solution to that.

Let´s assume that Fleming was the Ripper. For some reason he enjoyed carving women up to pieces, and possesing their organs.

Of Kelly we know that she was truly fond of him, in spite of the fact that they had broken up. Your suggestion that it would owe to monetary issues is a sound one, I think; Barnett could offer roof over her head, and Fleming could not.

Now, women who are truly fond of a man, are generally not women who are abused and beaten up by this self same guy, something that has often been suggested in this case, due to the "ill-use" reference. Instead, they would in the normal case be returning sentiments that are there on behalf of the man they are involved with, would they not?

We know that Fleming gave her money and occasionally met with her. To me, this suggests strong bonds.

Fleming, it seems, was less and less able to provide for her or himself as time passed - his life took a downward turn that ended up in lunacy. And if he could not support Mary, it was because he could not find a job, something that could easily have been connected to beginning difficulties in his mental character.

Now, here is my suggestion: The asylum records state that Fleming suffered from delusions of persecution. Could it be that he was convinced that the game was up after slaying Eddowes?
If he was the man seen by Lawende, Levy and Harris, he may have been aware that somebody had, for the first time, gotten a good look at him. There is even the off-hand possibility that he actually knew one of these three men by sight, and thus decided that he would be hunted down.
Remember that if he suffered from deslusions of persecution, then he may well have been misjudged the chance that he would be given away to the police! Imagination may have played him a foul trick - that´s what happens when you suffer from such delusions.

And this is where we apply "Lex Hedin": Feeling certain that his Ripping days were over, he may have decided to kill Mary Kelly to prevent her from gaining knowledge about his infamous alias. And when he kills her, he goes over the top, perhaps in a psychosis, and - significantly - when he goes for an organ to bring with him, he is only interested in the heart!

The usual lack of any scrap of evidence applies to this scenario, but that should not amaze anyone. It is, however, a scenario that I find quite credible throughout, and I have not come close to anything such in Flemings case before.

Anybody who would care to comment? Perhaps you,Glenn?

All the best, my friend! On a dreary, stormy, rainy day like this the thought of a beer in one of Helsingborgs pubs comes to mind. Perhaps you would take up on that, even if you should choose not to take up on my suggestion of a Fleming scenario?

Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi ho Fisherman,

Indeed, Tore Hedin is fascinating case.
He is generally referred to as Sweden's worst mass murderer, though, rather than a serial killer. However, if we disregard the first murder - which was totally separate from the rest and occurred a year prior to the rest of his crimes - then the murder of his parents and of his fiancée and her boss later the same night, might make him a spree killer, since those two incidents were related and perpetrated a few hours after each other but still separate.

OK, I think I lost Fleming somewhere in all this...

All the best

[Fisherman]

Come to think of it, Sam, among us placid Swedes there is actually a killer that applies to some extent here.
You will probably not have heard of Tore Hedin before. His killings took place in the early 1950´s, and Hedin still counts as one of the worst cases in Swedish criminal history. Here´s what happened:

Tore Hedin wanted to become a policeman. He never accoplished this, but he was drafted an an extra policeman, a less educated, voluntary police.

He began his killing spree by robbing the owner of a windmill, and burning the whole place down. Afterwards, he was one of the investigators at the place, throwing forwards suspects, and consoling the victims ageing father!

He used the money he had taken to impress upon his fiancée, and they were engaged. It did not hold up, though, and the girl wanted to break free. This resulted in Hedin beating her up. As a result of that, he was forced to leave the voluntary police force, and this in it´s turn was something he did not want his parents to find out about, since it would shame him.

So how did he solve the situation? He went to his parents home, and killed both his father and his mother with an axe, before setting fire to their house.

From there he went to the old peoples home where his ex fiancée worked, and killed both her and the woman who headed the home. This time too, he set fire to the house, leaving five elderly people to burn to death.

Hedin took his own life afterwards, by drowning himself in a nearby lake.

Hedin killed for money from the outset (although his first crime was burning a house down in the mid-size Swedish town of Kristianstad), and so he differs to a great extent from a man like Kemper. But some of the hallmarks are there, I feel, and I thought that it could perhaps be refreshing to mix all English-spoken serialists up with something more exotic ...

All the best,

Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Has this turned into an Edmund Kemper thread?

Hardly, Glenn - he's only been mentioned in a handful of posts, and then mostly with the intent of shedding some light on the Fleming scenario. Of course, if someone can be shown to have committed a "domestic" after first murdering and mutilating a series of complete strangers, I can see why that light might hurt your eyes

[Fisherman]

Well, Sam, if you saw the movie "Silence of the lambs", you may agree that Hannibal Lecter had a long-standing and significant relataionship with dr Chilton...?

That aside, I have already said that I realize the significance of the Kemper case as a useful comparison when it comes to Fleming as a possible Ripper, and that applies even when you ponder the built-in significant differences.

As for Auden and off-centre love aims, I think that we may turn to another British poet to recognize the fact that what we describe as love may range from Platonic such to more flesh-concerned variants, and that the object for one´s love may sometimes be yourself; was it not Byron who once said that he would rather suffocate a child in it´s crib than look away from his own lusts...?

All the best,

Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Has this turned into an Edmund Kemper thread?
It's starting to get tedious.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Hey Sam, lay off that PC button, for you are quite right, the majority of murder victims are killed by someone who 'loves' them.

In Indeed, AP. In the case of Kemper, however, one might have to argue that his love towards his was of the "less-than groovy" kind. As Auden wrote, "Each love to its aim is true, and each must seek its own", and I have little doubt that there are folk out there who indeed love in their own way, but whose aim is rather off-centre compared to the majority.

[Cap'n Jack]

Hey Sam, lay off that PC button, for you are quite right, the majority of murder victims are killed by someone who 'loves' them.
I've been saying that for 30 years now.
The boy wanted love.

[Sam Flynn]

To begin with, when you describe Edmund Kempers mother as a "loved one"

I knew I'd get in trouble for using that phrase! Perhaps I should have referred to her as "someone with whom the killer had had a long-standing and significant relationship". Long-winded though that is, it fairly encapsulates what I meant, and what I should have said

[DVV]

Hi David!


You should read the two sentences together; I don´t BELIEVE that Fleming was the Ripper, and since I hold this belief, I also believe that IF he killed, he killed only Kelly. Call it intuition if you like, or call it a weighing together of the circumstances surrounding the killings. The only thing you can´t call it is proof, for there is no such around. Which in the end of course means that I could have been a bit clearer by adding an IMHO to my statement!

The best, David!

Fisherman

Mon cher Fish,
of course, quoting one of your two sentences does not mean I read only one of them.
My problem is that I'm little bit afraid about people trying to portray Fleming as "another Barnett", since we can't ignore two major facts: Fleming's lunacy, and his moving to Whitechapel in August 1888.
But I have no problem to concede that I don't believe him to be the ripper. To my mind, he has to be a viable suspect, and the little we know about him should prevent us, IF we assume him to be Mary's murderer, to see this murder as a 100 percent domestic affair (thinking here, also, about Sam's comparison with Kemper).

Amitiés, and all the best,
David