Domestic or lunatic?

[Fisherman]

Carrotty Nell writes:
"I think this guy was JTR, I really do"

Well, you could do a lot worse picking a suitable suspect, Nell. But you yourself throw forward an interesting matter when it comes to the silence of the police. And even if we choose to believe that Fleming would have slipped through the net, as James Evans or something else, we are left with the trouble of explaining why he did the first murders. And if it was him - why did he choose a category of women so consistent in age and status?

If we are to look away from the rest, Fleming really is the most convincing suggestion mentioned for Kellys death, no doubt about it. But when we bring the other victims on stage, we are faced with something quite different from a domestic scenario. And if we accept that the same killer is responsible for all the killings (Stride aside, as usual...), we are left with something that resembles crime fiction if we try to nail Fleming as Jack. If someone tried to force-feed me a plot like that in a crime novel, I would use said novel for toilet paper.

Who will supply me with a credible answer to my questions? Could Fleming have practiced on the first victims, before going for the grande finale with Kelly? Or did all the other victims know that Fleming was of royal descent, and had fathered an illegitimate child with Kelly...

The best, all!

Fisherman

[Carrotty Nell]

My thoughts too. This guy is at the top of my list way above the likes of Druitt, Chapman and Kosminski. In fact it's actually harder to think of negative points arguing against him. The only thing that occurs to me in that respect is that he seems just a tad too obvious. You would expect someone known to have been harassing one of the victims to have figured in the contemporary Police investigation. Even if they could not trace him you would kind of expect him to get a mention to that effect in McNaghten's report of the 'his whereabouts could not be ascertained' kind or whatever it was he said about Ostrog. The Police silence on the subject of Fleming kind of makes me suspect that they could have traced him and eliminated him for some reason. But if they didn't... well! I think this guy was JTR, I really do.

[DVV]

Yes Kat, plausible and fascinating.

[KatBradshaw]

And I have read the post from the begining. I find Flemming a very plausible suspect.

[KatBradshaw]

I am not confusing them. I don't think that there were, or are, many men who would sit back and allow their woman to sleep with other men, whatever the reason.

[DVV]

Hello KatBradshaw,
if you read the thread since its start, you'll see that most posters show interest in Fleming's case.
If a man known for having ill-used Mary Kelly, lived in Whitechapel at the time of the murders, died as a lunatic, etc, etc, is not a serious contender, then who is?
As to your suggestion that Fleming may have been "angry because of Mary's prostitution", I think you should not confuse Barnett (the Good) and Fleming (the Bad and the Ugly!).

Amitiés,
David

[KatBradshaw]

I have just read 'Will the real Mary Kelly..' and I have to say I am really interested in these histories of Flemming. I was wondering how many people pit there think that he is a serious contender.
I was struck by the idea that he was living in the area unbeknownst to some and that he was said to have been abusive to Mary. If he was angry at Mary's prostitution, and I admit that is a massive if, then I can see him destroying the class of woman before ultimately turning on the woman he was truely angry with in the worst way.

[Ben]

Thanks for the suggestion, Norma. I''ll look into it!

[Natalie Severn]

That was an interesting comparison Dan.I wont be looking him up before I go to bed but when I can stomach the thought I will try to see what he was about.

Hi Celesta,Ben, Fisherman et al---

In case people wonder where Mary may have met her ex, Joseph Fleming,she was reported to have gone over to a pub in Fish Street,quite often .Fish Street is very near to Cannon Street station and also near Billingsgate Fish Market.I cant remember where I read this but its in one or two of the press reports.

[DVV]

I understand. Sarah Lewis was a visitor to the Keylers, who lived in the Court, and I have wondered whether or not she had ever seen Joseph Flemming.

Hello Celesta,
The major problem we face with Fleming is his extraordinary elusiveness - at leastifor 1888.
We know he was in Whitechapel, we know he "sometimes" met Mary, but apparently, noboby except Mary seems to have had a direct contact with him.
Barnett only refers to a Flem(m)ing living in Bethnal Green, while Venturney has "Mary told me..."
This suggests that Mary carefully managed to meet Fleming secretly, and it is also likely that she and Fleming did not meet in Miller's Court, but elsewhere.
And it seems also that Mary never told anybody that Fleming had moved to Whitechapel (may be Fleming did not told her...?).

Amitiés,
David

[Dan Norder]

Didnt Ed Gein skin and eat people or something ? Well that is"nt exactly a close fit to what we can glean about Jack.

There's definitely some major overlap in the pathology. Gein was a necrophiliac, Jack was a necrosadist. Both removed body parts to keep as trophies. Those with a strong stomach who want to Google around for the image of a woman Gein opened up like an animal carcass will see some major similarities to what happened to Eddowes and Kelly.

The major difference between the two seems to be that Jack was more active in getting his victims and more willing to express violence at risk of being caught. Gein was far less bold, and it doesn't surprise me at all that he was a mouse when locked up.

[Ben]

Agreed, Fish. A very reasonable post.

Venturney's reference to ill-use on Fleming's part on the grounds that Kelly was living with another man point very strongly in the direction of physical abuse, but how often and how severe we don't know. As for physical appearance, we have little to go on as you point out. He was, however, 29 at the time of the murders, 5"7' in height with brown eyes, a "vacant expression" (at least by 1892) and a scar on his right temple (at least by 1892). He worked as a dock labourer, and he no doubt dressed accordingly (see sketches of Sadler and Kidney).

Best,

Ben

[Ben]

Oh, we're not "sure", Cel. I'm saying it could have been a one-off (as opposed to a very regular visitor) for all we know.

[Fisherman]

Hi Celesta!

All is fab, even; and thanks for asking. I hope the same applies in your case!

I think that we have very little on Fleming, apparitionwise. As for his length, there was some consternation earlier because there was a record found that seemed to state that he was 6 ft 7! It would seem, however, that it was misread, and that the real length should be put down to 5 ft 7.
Brown eyes - that is about the only tangible thing I have seen mentioned.

Natalie, I have to agree with Ben on the Gein issue. SInce what you were saying was that a man that was claimed not to be dangerous by the asylum expertise of them days, it is useful to show that even men we know to have committed hideous crimes can be judged as completely harmless by even today´s expertise on such questions.
Incidentally, what Gein is most infamous for, is his wish to create a female skin to wear outside his own, dancing about outside his house on moonlit nights... He murdered to aquire the material he needed, but he also dug up dead people from the local to accomodate his need for skin. If you have seen the movie "Silence of the lambs", you may have noticed that the character "Buffalo Bill" in that film is a mixture of three historical serialists - Ed Gein, Ted Bundy and Albert Fish.

I will also take the opportunity to point out that what we have on Fleming implying violence at the time of the murders is so little that it may well amount to almost nothing. But given the fact that I have just argued that the most dangerous of men may well be meek, bashful creatures on the surface, I really don´t think that either qualifies or disqualifies Fleming as a viable suspect. There is much more to go on in the asylum records, speaking of abusive behaviour, mania and - not least - delusions of persecution.

The best, all!

Fisherman

[Celesta]

Thanks, Ben. 5'7" then. What is it that you're saying is a "one off"? Sarah's visits to the Court? How can we be sure of that?