What makes Druitt a viable suspect?

[Joshua Rogan]

I suspect that the fault lies with Macnaghten's private informant. There's another possible clue to the same effect in the Memorandum itself, where Macnaghten writes that Druitt was only "said to be" a doctor. If his source(s) had been more accurate, errors such as these would have been unlikely.

Seems like the only thing Macnaghton knew for sure about his suspect was his name. Or, conversely, he knew the details of a suspect but attached the wrong name to him.

[Sam Flynn]

Seems like the only thing Macnaghton knew for sure about his suspect was his name. Or, conversely, he knew the details of a suspect but attached the wrong name to him.

I doubt that he'd have made such a mistake when he correctly recalled a name as specific as Druitt (he even gets both his initials right) and the nature and timing of his death. I've no doubt that Macnaghten had "our" M(ontague) J(ohn) Druitt in his sights.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Probably not. Something as dramatic as the find of a bloody knife would surely have found its way into the "private information" if it had happened. Chances are that the night absences alone were enough to attract attention/suspicion... assuming Macnaghten's "private informant" wasn't simply embellishing.

Makes sense Sam

[Herlock Sholmes]

A question (and just because I’m curious and don’t know the answer)

At a Victorian Inquest, If a witness mentioned being given some important information would it have been normal procedure for the Coroner to have asked for the identity of the source of that information so that it could have been entered into the record?

[rjpalmer]

In the late 1950s and early 60s, when Druitt's name first came to light, it is a pity that researchers did not chase down the descendants of George Valentine. If there were any local rumors, oral traditions, family memories, etc., about this disgraced school-master, they would have been the most likely source. Instead, the early Ripperologists seemed more eager to weave a tale, linking Druitt to J.K. Stephen, Prince Eddy, the Cambridge Apostles, etc. etc. Perhaps something can still be recovered, but considering that another 50-60 years have since passed, it does seem wildly unlikely.

[mpriestnall]

No, no it wasn't Baron. That date (1895) is when the Admiral came to visit.

The sentence began with, "when we lived there formerly..." (before this 1895 visit), and goes on to say "for the terrible series of crimes committed by Jack the Ripper were then being perpetrated".

Which shows those rumors were current with the murders.

Only looking at this incomplete quotation, do this really mean those rumours were current with the murders?

Or that the Admiral was living in Blackheath contemporaneously with a suspect also living in Blackheath, not that the rumours were also circulating
at that time?

[The Baron]

Isn't the important part Mac's belief that he "resided with his own people"? Doesn't that rule out Druitt, or did his people live at the school in Blackheath?

Yes indeed, it rules him out clearly.

Druitt went missing for more than a week and the family didn't know anything until someone told them.

Except the name, it is as if Macnaghten and Sims were talking about someone else completely.


The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once and for all, Macnaghten was talking about Druitt. He states MJ Druitt. Unless someone can find a Dr Michael John Druitt that was fished out of the Thames on the 31st December then this nonsense should stop. The fact that he said “resided with his own people” is telling. Why didn’t he simply say “resided with his family?” He lived at the school with friends and colleagues. People of his own class.

This pointless nitpicking to show that black is white achieves nothing except obfuscation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Only looking at this incomplete quotation, do this really mean those rumours were current with the murders?

Or that the Admiral was living in Blackheath contemporaneously with a suspect also living in Blackheath, not that the rumours were also circulating
at that time?

Sorry Martin but this quotation couldn’t be more clear. Here, split into three parts:

““”””On January 1st 1895, my promotion to Captain was gazette; another spell of half-pay! At Blackheath we found a lot of old friends, and one of my old C and C’s Sir Walter Hunt-Grubbe, as Admiral at the college.The heath had a bad reputation after dark.”””””

This is Fleet visiting Blackheath in 1895.

“““””When we lived there formerly it was considered dangerous, for the terrible series of crimes committed by Jack The Ripper then being perpetrated,”””””

Ive emboldened ‘formerly’ because this shows that he was talking about when he’d previously lived there. And we know for a fact that he’d lived there in 1888. He even says that the crimes were ‘then’ being perpetrated. Ie at the time that he lived there.

““”””and many people believed that he lived at Blackheath.”””””

‘’lived’’ meaning that the rumour was that the ripper lived in Blackheath at that time. The time that Fleet also lived there, which we know was 1888.

So theres absolutely no room for doubt. There was a rumour at the time of the murders that Jack The Ripper lived in Blackheath. Which he might have done.

[The Baron]

Once and for all, Macnaghten was talking about Druitt. He states MJ Druitt. Unless someone can find a Dr Michael John Druitt that was fished out of the Thames on the 31st December then this nonsense should stop. The fact that he said “resided with his own people” is telling. Why didn’t he simply say “resided with his family?” He lived at the school with friends and colleagues. People of his own class.

This pointless nitpicking to show that black is white achieves nothing except obfuscation.

Wrong of course, because Macnagten said he was a doctor, do Doctors live in schools?!


The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

A question (and just because I’m curious and don’t know the answer)

At a Victorian Inquest, If a witness mentioned being given some important information would it have been normal procedure for the Coroner to have asked for the identity of the source of that information so that it could have been entered into the record?

The reason that I ask this is because at the Inquest it was stated that William was told about Monty’s disappearance by ‘an unnamed friend.’ Why unnnamed?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. do Doctors live in schools?!

Do proven liars post on Forums? Yes they do apparently.

So what you are saying is that there was a Dr Druitt that was fished out of the Thames and Sir Melville Macnaghten got him confused with Monty? Or any doctor?

Show me the Doctor that was fished out of the Thames on 31st December 1888 please. Even those that don’t value Druitt as a suspect accept the Macnaghten was talking about Monty. No one agrees with you. Your position is untenable and yet you battle on, completely unable to admit when you are wrong. No surprise there. I’m not going to get into another protracted and boring argument with you on this point Baron. Find me the doctor.

[The Baron]

No, I am saying that your take on (his people) to mean his colleagues in the school where he lived is wrong, because Macnaghten didn't know he was a teacher living in a school, he thought he was a sexually mad 41 years old doctor.


Your idea is wrong.


The Baron

[PaulB]

In the late 1950s and early 60s, when Druitt's name first came to light, it is a pity that researchers did not chase down the descendants of George Valentine. If there were any local rumors, oral traditions, family memories, etc., about this disgraced school-master, they would have been the most likely source. Instead, the early Ripperologists seemed more eager to weave a tale, linking Druitt to J.K. Stephen, Prince Eddy, the Cambridge Apostles, etc. etc. Perhaps something can still be recovered, but considering that another 50-60 years have since passed, it does seem wildly unlikely.

Martin Howells and Keith Skinner did research the Valentine family in the 1980s. In fact, I think one of the Valentine family is acknowledged in their book, but I don't think it led anywhere, hence they didn't include it. It's frustrating looking back at what researchers didn't pursue in the 50s and 60s, but, of course, there was so much needing research back then. Even in the late 80s we didn't know who Kosminski and Ostrog were.

[PaulB]

No, I am saying that your take on (his people) to mean his colleagues in the school where he lived is wrong, because Macnaghten didn't know he was a teacher living in a school, he thought he was a sexually mad 41 years old doctor.


Your idea is wrong.


The Baron

Why?

Why does 'his people' have any bearing on Druitt's age, profession or mental health? Most commonly 'his people' meant immediate family, but since Druitt wasn't living at home, why is it wrong to postulate that Macnaghten meant the people with whom he was living?