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What makes Druitt a viable suspect?

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  • There’s no such thing as a ‘good’ suicide of course but I have to say that drowning would probably be the last method that I’d select should I be so inclined. There’s something nightmarish about it. Especially, as has been mentioned, you’ve got enough time to struggle against it. Not a pleasant thought.
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

      From The New York Times, 1909:

      "POUGHKEEPSIE, Nov. 21. -- The body of Leonard C. Miller, who disappeared last Monday from his home in this city, was found with grappling irons to-day in the Hudson River. He had evidently drowned himself, as the pockets of his overcoat were filled with stones to keep the body from rising."

      The Paul Wallich case, 1938:

      "In 1931, Paul transferred title of the house to his wife, Hildegard, a Gentile. But despite his friends' urgings, Paul Wallich didn't leave Nazi Germany. On Nov. 9, 1938, the day of Kristallnacht, the window-shattering riot against Jews and their property, Hildegard called Paul at work and told him not to come home, because the Gestapo was waiting outside the house. Paul fled to Cologne. Two days later, he put stones in his pockets and drowned himself in the Rhine."

      It is not unheard of, Jon.
      I think those two references are merely 'assuming' suicide.
      However, yes Crister, I know it's not unheard off. I knew Virginia Woolf also did it. It just lends itself to either interpretation.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

        Okay, thanks for that! I actually believe it would be a completely logical thing to do to ensure the outcome for a very depressed person. He or she would not like to risk failure, surely.
        That seems to be the most likely diagnosis - depression. Anne Druitt was diagnosed with Melancholia, or Melancolic Depression. Though we have no indication Druitt was suffering from any mental disorder prior to December 1888.
        If he really thought he was going to be like mother then surely he must have suffered from similar symptoms for some time? Otherwise, why say that?
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

          I don't necessarily see the return ticket as a big issue, HS. Last time I bought a train ticket (a long time ago, but not in the Victorian era, I admit), a return was barely more expensive than a single. Maybe his mind wasn't totally made up, or he wasn't sure he could go through with it?

          Just found this handy map of the London Underground system in 1888 that someone has thoughtfuy compiled;

          https://www.deviantart.com/andrewtif...1888-635187913

          ​​​​​​​Turnham Green looks a lot closer than Hammersmith, and could be accessed via tube from Charing Cross, where he bought his ticket. But if the ticket was overground, it would have terminated at Hammersmith. There was a horse drawn tram available from there which ran through Chiswick and very near the asylum. So very little walking involved. Handy if you were heavily laden. By which I mean by a suitcase, I'm sure he didn't load his pockets with rocks before he set off.
          Like you I don’t use the train much, but at one point a retur was less than a one way here in NSW
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • Hi Joshua,

            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
            That is interesting....
            Tuke's asylum was I think in Chiswick Lane, which leads right down to the river. Nearby is a causeway for the ferry, which looks a likely jumping off point for a suicide, and is more or less where his body was found floating a month later.
            On the other hand, the unused return ticket seems to show he got off at Hammersmith, which might suggest he jumped off Hammersmith Bridge. ​It's less likely, but possible, that his body drifted upstream to where it was found, on an incoming tide.

            But if he were headed for Chiswick why stop short? Unless he caught a bus, or walked the remaining mile or two?
            I think it's a bit too much to expect sensible and sane actions from a man who is on the virge of killing himself. Just try to put yourself into his shoes.

            Cheers,

            Boris
            ~ All perils, specially malignant, are recurrent - Thomas De Quincey ~

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              That seems to be the most likely diagnosis - depression. Anne Druitt was diagnosed with Melancholia, or Melancolic Depression. Though we have no indication Druitt was suffering from any mental disorder prior to December 1888.
              If he really thought he was going to be like mother then surely he must have suffered from similar symptoms for some time? Otherwise, why say that?
              I agree that Druitt must have exhibited symptoms of some kind, depressed periods, blackouts for example but what if his mother was in a kind of vegetative, dead-to-the-world state and this was what he feared for himself. Ending up not being able to function at all?
              Regards

              Herlock






              "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

              Comment


              • I feel that there is a systematic broken circle in explaining the theory of Druitt being the ripper.

                It goes:

                Assume MacNaghten knew what he was talking about when he wrote his memorandum
                then
                Assume that Druitt was the Ripper
                then
                Acknowledge that this would mean that all the torso killings, along with the other ripper like murders (since he took a 5 victims, and 5 victims only theory, and even disregarding that; Druitt died before a number of later murders took place), etc were all done by someone else
                then
                Acknowledge that the presence of multiple different killers who all managed to kill and not get caught indicates that the skill of the killers was not the reason why so many murders went unsolved
                then
                Realize that the reason why so many murders were unsolved had to do with a level of systematic incompetence among the police force
                then
                Realize that this includes MacNaghten as he was also a police officer, which means that he was part of the issue with the systematic incompetence among the police force
                then
                Realize that this means that MacNaghten did not know what he was talking about when he wrote his memorandum
                also
                Understand that the only reason why Druitt is ever really considered a suspect is because he was named in MacNaghtens memorandum
                therefore
                Determine that Druitt must not have been the Ripper

                Comment


                • Honestly, I could have been convinced to see credibility within the speculation of MacNaghten had the police been able to solve the murders of Alice McKenzie and Francis Coles, while proving that there was no link in either of those cases to the ripper killings.

                  But the fact is, that the failures of the police at the time led to such a wide number of murders remaining unsolved, that I consider the speculation of the contemporary police as to the identity of the ripper to be worthless (unless they believe that most or all of the unsolved murders were all connected to the same killer). And without the speculation of the contemporary police, there is absolutely no connection left between Druitt and the ripper killings.
                  Last edited by Stacker; 03-23-2019, 10:30 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Stacker View Post
                    I feel that there is a systematic broken circle in explaining the theory of Druitt being the ripper.

                    It goes:

                    Assume MacNaghten knew what he was talking about when he wrote his memorandum
                    No...just don’t assume that he was a liar or a fool because it’s convenient to anyone trying to ridicule Druitt as a suspect.
                    then
                    Assume that Druitt was the Ripper
                    No...keep an open mind to the possibility
                    then
                    Acknowledge that this would mean that all the torso killings, along with the other ripper like murders (since he took a 5 victims, and 5 victims only theory, and even disregarding that; Druitt died before a number of later murders took place), etc were all done by someone else
                    Is it not possible that Jack The Ripper wasn’t responsible for every woman’s death that occurred up to 1891? Why are you assuming that Jack and the Torso killer were one and the same?
                    then
                    Acknowledge that the presence of multiple different killers who all managed to kill and not get caught indicates that the skill of the killers was not the reason why so many murders went unsolved
                    I just don’t get this point.
                    then
                    Realize that the reason why so many murders were unsolved had to do with a level of systematic incompetence among the police force
                    What do you mean? Some killers get caught, some don’t. Police occasionally make errors but it’s not the primary reason why some killers avoid capture
                    then
                    Realize that this includes MacNaghten as he was also a police officer, which means that he was part of the issue with the systematic incompetence among the police force
                    Or realise that there’s no evidence that he wasn’t incompetent or an idiot. He was human
                    then
                    Realize that this means that MacNaghten did not know what he was talking about when he wrote his memorandum
                    Not a shred of evidence for this of course but were used to that.
                    also
                    Understand that the only reason why Druitt is ever really considered a suspect is because he was named in MacNaghtens memorandum
                    A ludicrous point and I’ve never understood why it’s made. It’s utterly irrelevant.
                    therefore
                    Determine that Druitt must not have been the Ripper
                    only if you are hopelessly biased
                    The strange lengths that you will go to to try a dismiss Druitt as a suspect. Name a better suspect. Second thoughts, don’t bother because there isn’t one.
                    Regards

                    Herlock






                    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stacker View Post
                      Honestly, I could have been convinced to see credibility within the speculation of MacNaghten had the police been able to solve the murders of Alice McKenzie and Francis Coles, while proving that there was no link in either of those cases to the ripper killings.

                      But the fact is, that the failures of the police at the time led to such a wide number of murders remaining unsolved, that I consider the speculation of the contemporary police as to the identity of the ripper to be worthless (unless they believe that most or all of the unsolved murders were all connected to the same killer). And without the speculation of the contemporary police, there is absolutely no connection left between Druitt and the ripper killings.
                      Firstly, Mackenzie and Coles are irrelevant unless it can be proven that they were victims of the ripper. And it can’t.

                      Secondly, so what your saying is because there were unsolved murders nothing that Sir Melville Macnaghten (or indeed any other senior police officer) said should ever be considered as potentially true. Do you apply that criteria to today’s police too?

                      Thirdly, try reading Jon Hainsworth’s book on the subject first, although as you’ve already made your mind up why bother. You are grossly over simplifying things to suit your point. I’d never try and dismiss something i hadn’t read in the first place.

                      And fourthly, simply this - name one single, proveable fact that shows that Druitt couldn’t have been Jack The Ripper - you can’t. So he can’t be dismissed by reason or facts. Only bias.

                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                      Comment


                      • I mean:

                        The killer(s) of Emma Elizabeth Smith were never apprehended
                        The killer(s) of Martha Tabram were never apprehended
                        The killer(s) of all of the C5 Victims were never apprehended
                        The killer(s) of all of the Torso Victims were never apprehended
                        The killer(s) of Alice McKenzie were never apprehended
                        The killer(s) of Francis Coles were never apprehended
                        All these murders took place in a 5 year period in the same general area.

                        In my opinion, there are only 2 possibilities:

                        1. The killer(s) were extremely skilled at what they did, and their skill was what allowed them to not get caught. The more individual killer(s) you add in this scenario, the possibility that they all had this level of extraordinary skill becomes exponentially more unlikely.

                        2. The police had a very high level of incompetence in the way they investigated murders, which allowed a large number of individual killers to get away with it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          Secondly, so what your saying is because there were unsolved murders nothing that Sir Melville Macnaghten (or indeed any other senior police officer) said should ever be considered as potentially true. Do you apply that criteria to today’s police too?
                          1. This sort of analysis can only be usefully applied when we have the benefit of hindsight once the crimes happened long into the past. We cannot realistically apply it to todays police because hindsight only exists for the past, not the present or future.
                          2. I never said that what a police officer said was automatically untrue as a result of such an error. I just said that it makes it harder to view the officer themselves as a competent individual who knows what they are doing when they investigate a case.

                          Comment


                          • https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...lliams-in-2016

                            since you seem to be wondering, this is in my opinion the most likely suspect by far. Post 6 contains a big detail.

                            if you want to argue with me about this suspect, please do so on the linked thread, not this thread by the way.
                            Last edited by Stacker; 03-24-2019, 12:59 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bolo View Post
                              I think it's a bit too much to expect sensible and sane actions from a man who is on the virge of killing himself. Just try to put yourself into his shoes.

                              Cheers,

                              Boris
                              One of the questions is, was he truly insane?
                              We only have that vague note said to be found by William to justify insanity. Nothing we know about Monty's schedule or legal career suggests mental problems, or a decline in his duties either.
                              William was not entirely truthful at the inquest, so what else did William say that was not true?
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                I agree that Druitt must have exhibited symptoms of some kind, depressed periods, blackouts for example but what if his mother was in a kind of vegetative, dead-to-the-world state and this was what he feared for himself. Ending up not being able to function at all?
                                While Monty was alive his mother was being treated at the Brooks House Asylum, and was permitted frequent leaves of absence. So not in a serious mental condition. Anne was not certified again until April of 1889, she died of heart failure six months later.

                                If Anne was not in a serious condition in late 1888, where is the justification for Monty using her condition as reason to end his life?
                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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