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What makes Druitt a viable suspect?

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  • That is interesting....
    Tuke's asylum was I think in Chiswick Lane, which leads right down to the river. Nearby is a causeway for the ferry, which looks a likely jumping off point for a suicide, and is more or less where his body was found floating a month later.
    On the other hand, the unused return ticket seems to show he got off at Hammersmith, which might suggest he jumped off Hammersmith Bridge. ​It's less likely, but possible, that his body drifted upstream to where it was found, on an incoming tide.

    But if he were headed for Chiswick why stop short? Unless he caught a bus, or walked the remaining mile or two?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stacker View Post

      I was unaware of much of this when I posted my statement.
      So I will admit that William could not have murdered Monty, but I still am willing to say that Druitt is 100% innocent, and that he very well could have been murdered by someone as opposed to having killed himself.
      It is impossible to be 100% certain that Druitt could not have been JTR unless you have evidence that he physically couldnít have committed the crimes and no such evidence exists. In fact there are very few suspects that can be categorically discounted without recourse to far-fetched conspiracy theories. Neill Cream for instance was in prison in Chicago at the time of the murders. Prince Eddy can also be shown to have been elsewhere. Thereís nothing wrong with anyone saying ďI donít think that Druitt was the ripperĒ or even ďI feel very strongly that Druitt wasnít guilty,Ē anything further makes no sense.
      Regards

      Herlock




      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
        That is interesting....
        Tuke's asylum was I think in Chiswick Lane, which leads right down to the river. Nearby is a causeway for the ferry, which looks a likely jumping off point for a suicide, and is more or less where his body was found floating a month later.
        On the other hand, the unused return ticket seems to show he got off at Hammersmith, which might suggest he jumped off Hammersmith Bridge. ​It's less likely, but possible, that his body drifted upstream to where it was found, on an incoming tide.

        But if he were headed for Chiswick why stop short? Unless he caught a bus, or walked the remaining mile or two?
        Iím assuming that there was a station at Chiswick or nearby Joshua and that the Hammersmith stop wasnít the nearest one to his destination? Could the asylum have been something like half way between the two so he decided to walk. Itís also interesting that he had bought a return ticket after leaving a suicide note?
        Regards

        Herlock




        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
          Where Druitt resided is an interesting question, plus the fact Anne Druitt (his mother) also died at Chiswick. Is that a coincidence?
          David Andersen theorised that Monty might have been staying with the Tukes because of his friendship with the family, and their ability to treat mental illness. It was William who moved their mother to the Tukes before she died.
          It has always been a mystery why Monty & his mother both died at Chiswick, what was the connection? - the Tuke family of doctors who treat mental illness?
          Perhaps, Monty's "lodgings" were with the Tuke family since his dismissal from the school?
          I just checked on Wiki Wick (Sorry, couldnít resist it) about the name Tuke and came up with Daniel Hack Tuke who Iím assuming is our man? The family ran The York Retreat going back years but Daniel settled in London in 1875 as a specialist in mental illness. I wonder if Monty got some unfavourable prognosis about his own condition from Tuke which convinced him to end it all?
          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • Are we sure when that suicide note was written?
            Surely, if you write a note on Saturday then "since yesterday" is more likely than "since Friday"?
            Doesn't "since Friday" imply the letter was written at least two days later?
            The return ticket was dated 1st Dec. (Saturday), but equally if suicide was on your mind (because of what happened Friday) why buy a return ticket?

            With respect to the proximity of Hammersmith to Chiswick, David Andersen wrote:
            "It is but a short walk from Hammersmith railway station to the river at Chiswick, to the spot where the body of Montague Druitt was found floating in the river".
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • The Manor house Asylum at Chiswick in 1888 was staffed by three doctors; Dr. Thomas Tuke the son of the resident Physician Dr Thomas Harrington Tuke, and Dr Charles Tuke. There was also a Frederick Tuke (brother of Thomas) who acted as Administrator, plus 39 ancillary staff for the Asylum.
              Thomas Tuke and his brother Frederick Tuke were longtime avid cricketers and attended Oxford Univ. at the same time as MJD.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                That is interesting....
                Tuke's asylum was I think in Chiswick Lane, which leads right down to the river. Nearby is a causeway for the ferry, which looks a likely jumping off point for a suicide, and is more or less where his body was found floating a month later.
                On the other hand, the unused return ticket seems to show he got off at Hammersmith, which might suggest he jumped off Hammersmith Bridge. ​It's less likely, but possible, that his body drifted upstream to where it was found, on an incoming tide.

                But if he were headed for Chiswick why stop short? Unless he caught a bus, or walked the remaining mile or two?
                It's the large stones in the coat pockets that seem strange to me. Weighing the body down with large stones is more consistent with the action of someone who is trying to hide a body. Is it really a practical move for a suicide? If so, it seems to be a move to anticipate a change of mind, yet surely if the victim does change their mind they would slip the coat off. So that seems to rule out or at least significantly weaken the suicide motive to me.

                Weighing the body down with heavy stones is practical when you know the victim is unable to remove the coat. The body will only float to the surface, and drift, after sufficient gasses have built up in the corpse to raise it to the surface.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  Iím assuming that there was a station at Chiswick or nearby Joshua and that the Hammersmith stop wasnít the nearest one to his destination? Could the asylum have been something like half way between the two so he decided to walk. Itís also interesting that he had bought a return ticket after leaving a suicide note?
                  I don't necessarily see the return ticket as a big issue, HS. Last time I bought a train ticket (a long time ago, but not in the Victorian era, I admit), a return was barely more expensive than a single. Maybe his mind wasn't totally made up, or he wasn't sure he could go through with it?

                  Just found this handy map of the London Underground system in 1888 that someone has thoughtfuy compiled;

                  https://www.deviantart.com/andrewtif...1888-635187913

                  ​​​​​​​Turnham Green looks a lot closer than Hammersmith, and could be accessed via tube from Charing Cross, where he bought his ticket. But if the ticket was overground, it would have terminated at Hammersmith. There was a horse drawn tram available from there which ran through Chiswick and very near the asylum. So very little walking involved. Handy if you were heavily laden. By which I mean by a suitcase, I'm sure he didn't load his pockets with rocks before he set off.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    It's the large stones in the coat pockets that seem strange to me. Weighing the body down with large stones is more consistent with the action of someone who is trying to hide a body. Is it really a practical move for a suicide? If so, it seems to be a move to anticipate a change of mind, yet surely if the victim does change their mind they would slip the coat off. So that seems to rule out or at least significantly weaken the suicide motive to me.

                    Weighing the body down with heavy stones is practical when you know the victim is unable to remove the coat. The body will only float to the surface, and drift, after sufficient gasses have built up in the corpse to raise it to the surface.
                    From The New York Times, 1909:

                    "POUGHKEEPSIE, Nov. 21. -- The body of Leonard C. Miller, who disappeared last Monday from his home in this city, was found with grappling irons to-day in the Hudson River. He had evidently drowned himself, as the pockets of his overcoat were filled with stones to keep the body from rising."

                    The Paul Wallich case, 1938:

                    "In 1931, Paul transferred title of the house to his wife, Hildegard, a Gentile. But despite his friends' urgings, Paul Wallich didn't leave Nazi Germany. On Nov. 9, 1938, the day of Kristallnacht, the window-shattering riot against Jews and their property, Hildegard called Paul at work and told him not to come home, because the Gestapo was waiting outside the house. Paul fled to Cologne. Two days later, he put stones in his pockets and drowned himself in the Rhine."

                    It is not unheard of, Jon.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                      Are we sure when that suicide note was written?
                      Surely, if you write a note on Saturday then "since yesterday" is more likely than "since Friday"?
                      Doesn't "since Friday" imply the letter was written at least two days later?
                      The return ticket was dated 1st Dec. (Saturday), but equally if suicide was on your mind (because of what happened Friday) why buy a return ticket?
                      The "since Friday" had crossed my mind too. But if writing on a Saturday, I might not expect the note to be found before Monday, so might myself write that rather than "since yesterday". Especially if I didn't date the note, as seems to be the case.

                      With respect to the proximity of Hammersmith to Chiswick, David Andersen wrote:
                      "It is but a short walk from Hammersmith railway station to the river at Chiswick, to the spot where the body of Montague Druitt was found floating in the river".
                      It's a lot shorter to the river at Hammersmith, if the river was his goal. But if heading for the asylum, he'd probably be carrying a suitcase at least. So probably would have caught the tram (see last post to Herlock).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                        It's the large stones in the coat pockets that seem strange to me. Weighing the body down with large stones is more consistent with the action of someone who is trying to hide a body. Is it really a practical move for a suicide? If so, it seems to be a move to anticipate a change of mind, yet surely if the victim does change their mind they would slip the coat off. So that seems to rule out or at least significantly weaken the suicide motive to me.

                        Weighing the body down with heavy stones is practical when you know the victim is unable to remove the coat. The body will only float to the surface, and drift, after sufficient gasses have built up in the corpse to raise it to the surface.
                        I expect he would have done the buttons on his coat up, before getting wet. I see it as more an attempt to prevent the instinctive survival response from stopping him going through with it, so only needs to delay him taking a breath for 30 seconds or so by making him sink straight away.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                          The Manor house Asylum at Chiswick in 1888 was staffed by three doctors; Dr. Thomas Tuke the son of the resident Physician Dr Thomas Harrington Tuke, and Dr Charles Tuke. There was also a Frederick Tuke (brother of Thomas) who acted as Administrator, plus 39 ancillary staff for the Asylum.
                          Thomas Tuke and his brother Frederick Tuke were longtime avid cricketers and attended Oxford Univ. at the same time as MJD.
                          Was Daniel Hack Tuke no relation then? It seems strange that someone with the unusual, almost Tolkean name Tuke, who was also a specialist in mental health was living in London at the same time? Or was he related but just unconnected th The Manor House Asylum?
                          Regards

                          Herlock




                          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                            From The New York Times, 1909:

                            "POUGHKEEPSIE, Nov. 21. -- The body of Leonard C. Miller, who disappeared last Monday from his home in this city, was found with grappling irons to-day in the Hudson River. He had evidently drowned himself, as the pockets of his overcoat were filled with stones to keep the body from rising."

                            The Paul Wallich case, 1938:

                            "In 1931, Paul transferred title of the house to his wife, Hildegard, a Gentile. But despite his friends' urgings, Paul Wallich didn't leave Nazi Germany. On Nov. 9, 1938, the day of Kristallnacht, the window-shattering riot against Jews and their property, Hildegard called Paul at work and told him not to come home, because the Gestapo was waiting outside the house. Paul fled to Cologne. Two days later, he put stones in his pockets and drowned himself in the Rhine."

                            It is not unheard of, Jon.
                            Hello Fish,

                            Virginia Wolf also filled her pockets with stones before throwing herself into the river Ouse.
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              Hello Fish,

                              Virginia Wolf also filled her pockets with stones before throwing herself into the river Ouse.
                              Okay, thanks for that! I actually believe it would be a completely logical thing to do to ensure the outcome for a very depressed person. He or she would not like to risk failure, surely.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                                I expect he would have done the buttons on his coat up, before getting wet. I see it as more an attempt to prevent the instinctive survival response from stopping him going through with it, so only needs to delay him taking a breath for 30 seconds or so by making him sink straight away.
                                Yup, Joshua - no chancetaking!

                                Comment

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