The Strange Death Of Montague John Druitt

[Aethelwulf]

I’ve just had a quick look at John Douglas’ profile of Jack The Ripper (I certainly want to stress that I’m no expert on the subject btw) so….

Age 28-36 - Druitt 31

Didn’t look out of the ordinary and the clothes that he wore wouldn’t have been his every day clothes - There’s no reason why Druitt couldn’t have ‘dressed down’ to fit in with others in the area.

Comes from a family with a domineering mother and a weak\passive or absent father - Certainly doesn’t sound like the Druitt family.

In his early years he’d have set fires, tortured animals etc - We have no way of knowing if Druitt did any of these but there’s certainly nothing on record. In fairness though a Victorian family would hardly have left a record of such behaviour had it occurred.

As he got older he would have expected to have found evidence of cruelty in the suspects writing or drawing - No evidence of this with Druitt but again the family would hardly have made this public. Speculation alert….maybe such things were discovered at the school which led to his sacking?

For employment he’d have sought positions where he could work alone, butcher, mortician’s assistant etc - The problem is that these types of job wouldn’t have been available to someone of Druitt’s class without being disowned by his family.

Some physical abnormality or speech defect - Doesn’t apply to Druitt as far as we know.

Wouldn’t have been married - Druitt wasn’t married of course.

Not adept at meeting people socially - Doesn’t sound like Druitt.

May have had an STD - Not as far as we know with Druitt but we can’t eliminate it for certain.

Perceived as shy or a loner - Doesn’t sound like Druitt but people who are, by nature, extremely shy can have normal lives where there shyness isn’t immediately obvious to all.

Lives or works in the Whitechapel area - Druitt wasn’t far away but we can’t say that he lived and worked in Whitechapel (although he ‘might’ have done charitable work there.)

……

Again I’m not claiming any expertise on this subject at all but I can’t help pointing out that these are by no means set-in-stone.

Im not aware of any physical abnormality or speech defect in Ted Bundy for example and it certainly couldn’t be said that Bundy wasn’t adept at meeting people socially. Was Bundy a loner? Did Bundy have an STD?

The killer wouldn’t have been married but Ridgway was married 3 times, Dennis Rader was married. Peter Sutcliffe was married.

Another issue with applying a profile to Druitt is that as well as any definite ‘no’s’ there are also unknowns. For example, how do we know that Druitt didn’t have some problem or deformity with his penis? (as has been suggested for Sickert) How can we know that he wasn’t abused by someone as a child? How can we know that he didn’t set fires or torture small animals?

Im not dismissing or rubbishing profiling. I’m just saying that there are issues when applying it here.

I think a reasonable question is whether Druitt could have be such a higher achiever if he was carrying all that baggage that we don't know about?

Do we know how tall Druitt was - worth noting the profile includes above/below ave height in the physical description. Profile says any physical issue could be small in reality but mentally crushing for him. I also wonder about the farmer attack - man had an abscess/scar on his neck.

Also for marriage, it says would not expect to be married but if so would be to someone older, would be short and violent (ridgway married 3 times could fit that)

Also the paranoia - carrying a knife at all times, just in case

Agree, not the total answer but I definitely think it is useful (obviously i would because of the degree to which it summarizes bury)

[Ms Diddles]

I think a reasonable question is whether Druitt could have be such a higher achiever if he was carrying all that baggage that we don't know about?

Do we know how tall Druitt was - worth noting the profile includes above/below ave height in the physical description. Profile says any physical issue could be small in reality but mentally crushing for him. I also wonder about the farmer attack - man had an abscess/scar on his neck.

Also for marriage, it says would not expect to be married but if so would be to someone older, would be short and violent (ridgway married 3 times could fit that)

Also the paranoia - carrying a knife at all times, just in case

Agree, not the total answer but I definitely think it is useful (obviously i would because of the degree to which it summarizes bury)

I'm working from memory here and don't have my books to hand (so apologies if I'm misfiring), but didn't Druitt excel at school, winning a place at Oxford but then wind up with a mere Third Class Honours Degree?

A Third (albeit from Oxbridge) isn't really setting the academic world ablaze, and COULD be indicitive of some kind of "baggage" / mental deterioration / personal issues.

Personally I don't place much store in profiling.

It's great for dramatic storylines and was hugely popular a couple of decades ago, but has largely been discredited.

It's marginally better (because it's based on logical deductions), but it's kind of similar to the phrenology of our times in my book.

[bernadette]

During the late 19^th Century there were two distinct and separate families named Tuke. To confuse matters even further both Tuke families were engaged in the same profession namely the humane treatment of the insane. The two families were friends and often collaborated in their endeavours to promote new treatments and methods of non-restraint.
Thomas Harrington Tuke ran the asylum at the Manor House in Chiswick. He was married to Sophia Connoly the daughter of John Connoly a pioneer in non-restaint methods and who ran a similar establishment in nearby Hanwell. Connoly had died in 1866 and in 1875 he was eventually succeeded by Daniel Hack-Tuke of the Quaker family who had first introduced non restraint into their own establishment in York. Daniel Hack-Tuke had one son Henry Scott Tuke who became a painter of some repute specialising in paintings of young naked boys
Thomas Harrington Tuke died in the summer of 1888 and passed control of the Chiswick asylum to his eldest son Thomas Seymour Tuke. It was Thomas Tuke who nursed Ann Druitt during her final days which were spent st the Chiswick asylum. He also failed to mention, in Ann Druitts case notes that her own son had committed suicide just eighteen months earlier virtually on the doorstep of his asylum whereas he did see fit to mention other instances of suicide, and attempted suicide within Anns own family as pertinent facts.
Montague Druitt and Thomas Tuke had both attended Oxford University at the same time and both shared a keen interest in Cricket with Montague playing for the University team.
Druitts death is dated the 4^th December just 5 days after purchasing a return ticket to nearby Hammersmith a short walk from the Chiswick asylum.
During those last days Montague would have ‘resided’ somewhere. Given Williams later decision to send Ann into the care of the Tukes asylum, close to the very spot where her own Son had apparently taken his life strongly suggests that there was a connection between the two families.
This would also explain how Montagues badly decomposed corpse was identified so quickly. It should be remembered that the policeman who searched the body told the inquest that there were no papers or letters of any kind found on the body.The place where he had resided was not Valentines school at all. It was where he had resided for the last few days of his life almost certainly the Manor House Asylum. These may well have been the friends who according later to MacNaghten had entertained grave doubts as to Druitts sanity. There is some evidence which suggests that this possibility is very real.
The Red House museum of local history in Christchurch Dorset boast among its exhibits a painting by Henry Scott Tuke son of Daniel Hack Tuke and a friend and contemporary of Thomas Seymour Tuke. Interestingly the Red House museum, a former workhouse built in the 18^th Century was gifted to the borough of Christchurch by no less than the Druitt family.But just recently yet another fascinating piece of information surfaced.
In issue 165 of ‘Ripperologist’ writer David Barrat presented an article about the many letters which had been received by Scotland Yard at the time of the Ripper murders. None of the letters have survived but luckily a list of those who had sent information in to Scotland Yard had been made before the letters were routinely destroyed, the list comprises of 227 entries. As I went through the list one name jumped off the page. Letter 131 on the list was sent to Scotland Yard on the 24^th November 1888. All we do know about this letter is that it offered suggestions re: the Whitechapel murder. The writer of the letter was Henry Scott Tuke. Less than one week after this letter was received George Sims wrote in his newspaper column published on the 2^nd December, two days before Montagues death that Commissioner Monro was on to someone.
Was Henry Scott Tuke the man who denounced Druitt?

o
I would like a source for Monty having been pulled from the thames with a "badly decomposed" body because it shouldnt have been. Perhaps they meant when they got to the post mortem? Decomp happens super fast once you get them out of the water. Or perhaps they simply referred to all the skin slippage. Would really like to see the source on this

[bernadette]

Forensic Evaluation of the Drowning of Druitt: Who was it who said there was "significant decomposition"? If it is a modern person, I know they mean advanced putrefication and I can picture the body and I know approximately how long he was dead. If it was someone in 1888, I think perhaps they just mean the skin had slipped off the body, as it is wont to do in watery graves, well in advance of actual decomposition. So let me walk you through what we know. #1 he went into the water with his shoes on. According to the television, this means he went unwillingly. Is there any actual fact available that this is true of suicides? #2 he was found floating with large rocks in his pocket. A 5'7" man of 150 pounds needs 6 pounds of rocks to weight him down and keep him under the water. Mind you, 6 pounds is a weight he can fight, should he so desire. To truly be weighted down to the point of nothing moving you would need at least 25 pounds of rocks. Can you imagine 25 pounds of rocks being held in ones pockets? There is no mention of the pockets being sewn shut so the rocks could possibly escape at any point. How much did these "4 large rocks" weigh? We have all assumed he had been under the water for a month. Why is that? That seems a big leap of judgement that cannot be justified. It is possible that, if he did go into the water about december first, the wool of his coat may have become saturated and, like hs skin, come apart and let out the extra rocks that held him under water. How long would that take? I think I see an experiment in my future! But then the condition of the coat would have been very poor. So I wonder if there are photos or comments anywhere as to the condition of his clothing. Next, we have the level of "decomposition'. It was December, which in London means 55 degree days and 40 degree nights. The Thames would have been at or below freezing but because it moves, would not have had ice. If Druitt was actually in the water December First, the amount of decomp by Dec 31 would have been negligible, and mostly due to water saturation, not the march of putrification. This is because of the cold, because it was in water, because he was fully clothed, because he had little body fat. The putrification process would have been extremely slow, almost to the point of shutting down. But, again, we have the problem of being soaked in water for a month. You know what your hands look like after a bath? Imagine 720 consecutive baths and what it does to your skin. here again lets look at the issue of how cold the Thames was. If he went from a warm indoor environment straight into the water, he would have died almost instantly due to the shock. people have said he would have fought drowning. I have just given you a scenario where that would not have had a chance o happen. Had he been outdoors at night, perhaps contemplating his actions, his body would not have gone into such a shock because there would only have been a ten or 20 degree difference. Freezing is freezing, his body still would have reacted to it. I dont believe, had he truly wished to die, that the instinct to swim away would have hit before the cold froze him to the point of not being able to react. Did he jump or did he walk in? The water where he was found is less than fifteen feet deep. It also doesnt seem to have a way to walk into it. He would have to fall in, at least, from a pier thats a few feet above it. He would need to jump from a height to be assured of going straight to the bottom. There isnt a bridge here. Perhaps a cargo ship? I dont know anything about that area in late Victorian era. Can anyone offer insight? And if he jumped, he would have passed through the water at such a rate that his clothes would have been seriously disarrayed-perhaps to the point of some of them being torn loose. That doesnt seem to have happened. But if he walked in, or fell in from a low height, I think the cold would have been so uncomfortable it would have taken quite some internal fortitude to go through with the suicide. Its possible he was on cocaine. Thats for some other thread. Cocaine is a pain killer. Did he commit suicide later than we think? Of course its possible! It was just a leap that he went into the water the next day after he was last seen. There is no real forensic evidence that he was in the water a month. The things in his pockets, the condition of the clothing, these are all in remarkably good condition for having been saturated with water for a month. however, the evidence is that he was not alive past that next day. If he was killed or otherwise died December first but didnt go into the water until much later, that would create significant decomposition not possible if he had gone into water that day.
I am new to studying ripper. If anything has been written or there are records I am unaware of please post a reply. I am trying to learn as fast as I can!

[Kattrup]

Forensic Evaluation of the Drowning of Druitt: Who was it who said there was "significant decomposition"?

Hi Bernadette

the comment about decomposition comes from the most comprehensive report of the inquest: “There were no marks of injury on the body, but it was rather decomposed.”

You can read it here: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18890105.html

This report contains the only known facts about Druitt’s death. You ask for photos or descriptions; There is no other documentation.

Yes, Druitt had his shoes on but no, this does not imply that he went unwillingly.

The number of stones seems straightforward: four in each pocket in the top coat. I’m not an expert on men’s clothing in the 1880s (or even today) but I assume a top coat typically had two pockets, making it eight “large” stones.

Regardless of the number and the stones’ weight, the fact that he loaded his coat with stones proves it was a suicide, so one does well to disregard fanciful theories of murder.

Nothing is known about where or how he entered the water. I personally believe he would have jumped from a bridge or similar.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Bernadette

the comment about decomposition comes from the most comprehensive report of the inquest: “There were no marks of injury on the body, but it was rather decomposed.”

You can read it here: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18890105.html

This report contains the only known facts about Druitt’s death. You ask for photos or descriptions; There is no other documentation.

Yes, Druitt had his shoes on but no, this does not imply that he went unwillingly.

The number of stones seems straightforward: four in each pocket in the top coat. I’m not an expert on men’s clothing in the 1880s (or even today) but I assume a top coat typically had two pockets, making it eight “large” stones.

Regardless of the number and the stones’ weight, the fact that he loaded his coat with stones proves it was a suicide, so one does well to disregard fanciful theories of murder.

Nothing is known about where or how he entered the water. I personally believe he would have jumped from a bridge or similar.

Hi Kattrup/ Bernadette

The only other suggestion that I could add is - might his top coat also have had two inside pockets? I can’t see it as important though.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Bernadette,

Excellent post.

Other things we should consider are the two cheques on the London and Provincial Bank (one for £50 and the other for £16), a first-class season pass from Blackheath to London (Southwestern Railway), a second half return Hammersmith to Charing Cross (dated 1st December) found in a pocket.

They must all have been printed on water-resistant paper and the cheques signed with waterproof ink.

Simon

[Wickerman]

...


They must all have been printed on water-resistant paper and the cheques signed with waterproof ink.

Simon

That was not necessary, I looked up body's found drowned in the B.N.A. there were several cases of paperwork (cheques & documents) found on a body where the ink was still intact and perfectly readable after several weeks in the water.
The post will still be there in the last major Druitt thread we debated on a few years ago.

As a footnote, it may be well to add, Iron Gall Ink was the most common ink used in the 19th century, by the nature of its ingredients it was waterproof. No need to seek out anything special.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There’s this one

[Wickerman]

The body was floating, erect?

[rjpalmer]

I dont know anything about that area in late Victorian era. Can anyone offer insight?

If you're interested in seeing this section of the Thames, you can take a virtual tour on the nifty Panoramic View of The Thames website, linked below. Many of the same buildings that were there in 1888 still stand.

When you click on the link, you'll see Hammersmith Bridge (opened in 1887) on the extreme right. Druitt's last train ticket was to Hammersmith.

Then just click one of the left pointing arrows on the lower left side of the screen and you'll drift down to Chiswick Mall.

Watch for the marker for "Chiswick Ait" and this is very near where Druitt's body was pulled from the river.

Digby Mansions - Chiswick and Hammersmith (panoramaofthethames.com)

[Herlock Sholmes]

The body was floating, erect?

Are you branching out into Carry On film territory Wick?

[bernadette]

[QUOTE=Simon Wood;n831393]Hi Bernadette,

Excellent post.

Other things we should consider are the two cheques on the London and Provincial Bank (one for £50 and the other for £16), a first-class season pass from Blackheath to London (Southwestern Railway), a second half return Hammersmith to Charing Cross (dated 1st December) found in a pocket.

They must all have been printed on water-resistant paper and the cheques signed with waterproof ink.

Simon[I know that with the checks, they could have been using just the indentations from the fountain pen. when I looked into the matter I realized that the paper 100% rag not as degradable as wood pulp paper, was inside of a leather wallet inside of a pocket of a heavy winter coat which may have been rubberized as a raincoat/macintosh making it less likely to be destroyed. HOWEVER even with all that I am skeptical. I have designed an experiment to check all these variables. Right now I am waiting for suppliues to be shipped in. I will keep everyone up to date on the results.

[bernadette]

That was not necessary, I looked up body's found drowned in the B.N.A. there were several cases of paperwork (cheques & documents) found on a body where the ink was still intact and perfectly readable after several weeks in the water.
The post will still be there in the last major Druitt thread we debated on a few years ago.

As a footnote, it may be well to add, Iron Gall Ink was the most common ink used in the 19th century, by the nature of its ingredients it was waterproof. No need to seek out anything special.

actually by 1888 people were using aniline ink. I am in the middle of designing an experiment to test out all the variables related to the ink, paper, printing method and coverings for the paper. It will take about 6-8 weeks then I will let you know.

[bernadette]

The body was floating, erect?

feet had been tied to a cement block, thus the comments about whether he had been depressed.