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The Strange Death Of Montague John Druitt

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  • #91
    Originally posted by The Baron View Post



    Absolutely nothing.

    He won a case in a court just before he died.

    Macnaghten was a tea merchant, he was just repeating what he heard.


    The Baron
    MacNaghten was an ex-tea merchant with a lifelong interest in crime.

    Warren was formerly a military man and Anderson and Munro were Lawyers and so also not career Police Officers and yet strangely you only criticise MacNaghten for this as if it has the slightest baring on anything. I wonder why

    Anyway thanks for your injection of biased drivel.

    Cant you find somewhere else to annoy people?
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes



    “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

    “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
      What are people's thoughts on Druitt's supposed insanity?

      He seems to be functioning well at his profession and cricket right up to his death. No evidence either way re his work as a schoolmaster.

      What hard evidence or even clues are there to indicate any insanity?

      None really is there?
      Yes Martyn, he appeared, at least on the surface, to be functioning normally close to the time of his death.

      I think that we have to say that if someone commits suicide then something isn’t right. Then we have the suicide note, or the part of it that was published, which said: "Since Friday I felt that I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die.”

      This could be taken to mean that he was scared of becoming insane like his mother (indicating a decline in himself) or that he feared incarceration for something (the murders?) We don’t know why he was dismissed from the school but it was obviously something very serious which could have included some kind of erratic behaviour or episodes of violence.

      Also, before anyone knew that he was dead (Dec 21st) at a meeting of the Blackheath Club it was decided that Monty should be removed from his position of Honourary Secretary and Treasurer because he had ‘gone abroad.’

      So something definitely wasn’t right. We just don’t know what it was but we know that it was serious.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes



      “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

      “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
        Even though I've always been interested in the mystery of MJ Druitt, for many years I was skeptical that his inquest was anything other than the standard fare. Coupled with my own re-examination of the source materials, I suspect that John Hainsworth may have finally wore me down. I now think that something about affair is not quite 'right,' though I admit that it is more of a gut feeling than anything that can be quantified or proven.

        If Druitt's family truly suspected that MJD was the murderer--and, to Macnaghten's mind, this was the brunt of the case against him--it would be more than a little na´ve to think that William Druitt wouldn't bend the truth if it suited him.

        It's a great pity that there isn't a more complete account of the proceedings, and that we know so little about what went on at Valentine's school.
        Hi Roger,

        Jon pm’ed me on JTRForums with this addition relative to the Inquest.

        “What Chrstine discovered was that Dr Thomas Diplock and William Druitt knew each other, or of each other. A few years before, Diplock had presided as coroner at the suicide of Isabella Druitt's nephew (and made the same judgment: "of unsound mind"). Isabella was William and Montague's aunt, and the widow of the very famous Dr. Robert Druitt.

        When William Druitt testified that he and his ailing mother were the only relations of the deceased barrister, his brother, not only was this a lie - Diplock knew it was a lie. With the local press in attendance inevitably wondering if this Montague Druitt was related to the respectable clan of the celebrated Dr. Druitt, the answer from William Druitt was a firm: no. This was Diplock being discreet on behalf of a very prominent family.

        What Diplock did not know was that William was concealing from him his belief that his drowned sibling was The Ripper. In the original, short story version of "The Lodger" (1911), by Marie Belloc Lowndes, the landlord identifies the drowned corpse of his gentleman lodger, but keeps to himself his belief the deceased was a serial killer. In an 1894 source, also discovered by Christine, a man close to George Sims revealed that the [un-named] Druitt family had "hushed up" this terrible knowledge of their deceased member's culpability to avoid a scandal.

        All these sources match each other; a respectable family was covering up their certainty that one of their own, a gentleman nominally above suspicion, was the fiend. This cover-up, however, unraveled and briefly leaked into the public sphere in 1891 - due to an indiscreet politician - and had to be taken over and led by an upper class police chief: the much maligned Melville Macnaghten”

        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes



        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

        “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

        Comment


        • #94
          The profilers of JtR were adamant he wouldn't have had a proper profession. I'm assuming that is because of traumatic early life experiences that no doubt shaped his ability to be successful e.g., sit exams, show application and dedication and determination. Even if he had been above average intelligence, he wouldn't have been able to pull himself out of his own mire of fecklessness to make anything of his life. Druitt had a profession, friends, a social network (cricket) - he had made something of his life. Druitt is a lame duck as a suspect . I'm sure his suicide was connected to went on at the school (doesn't take a genius to work out what this was). No doubt his family noticed a change in mood and behaviour, and put two and two together and made 5. Senior officials were interested in Druitt = X years/decades in job = experience and knowledge but also, I would guess, stuck in their ways, closed to new ideas, inflexible, dogmatic, willing to overlook what is actually staring them in face (you know who I mean - sacked from every job he ever had, abuser, addict, user of prostitutes, shaped by his early life experiences).

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post
            The profilers of JtR were adamant he wouldn't have had a proper profession. I'm assuming that is because of traumatic early life experiences that no doubt shaped his ability to be successful e.g., sit exams, show application and dedication and determination. Even if he had been above average intelligence, he wouldn't have been able to pull himself out of his own mire of fecklessness to make anything of his life.

            I don’t place a huge amount of weight in that though. We can’t assume that profilers are all-knowing or infallible as some appear to do when it suits.

            Druitt had a profession, friends, a social network (cricket) - he had made something of his life.

            Bundy, Gacy etc?

            Druitt is a lame duck as a suspect .

            Nonsense, he was nominated by MacNaghten and mentioned by others. Bury was looked into and dismissed.

            I'm sure his suicide was connected to went on at the school (doesn't take a genius to work out what this was).

            That’s a baseless assumption as there could have been other reasons for his sacking - inappropriate behaviour with a female employee of the school, violence toward one of the boys, violence toward a member of staff, being seen in the company of a prostitute, erratic/strange behaviour, regular absence etc.

            No doubt his family noticed a change in mood and behaviour, and put two and two together and made 5.

            An assumption without foundation. Can we really believe that a family of Druitt’s standing would want it known that one of their own was Jack the Ripper and mentioned it after simply ‘putting two and two together and without making certain?’

            Senior officials were interested in Druitt = X years/decades in job = experience and knowledge but also, I would guess, stuck in their ways, closed to new ideas, inflexible, dogmatic, willing to overlook what is actually staring them in face

            It’s a cop-out for people to try and portray senior Victorian Police as bumbling buffoons or corrupt crooks. I realise that it’s a convenient way of dismissing the inconvenient though.

            (you know who I mean - sacked from every job he ever had, abuser, addict, user of prostitutes, shaped by his early life experiences).
            What is also a very blatant cop-out is to entirely and casually dismiss the fact that two officers were sent to question Bury and dismissed him as a suspect. Of the suspects named this is possibly only applicable to Bury. He was actually looked at and rejected and to blame this on incompetence or the police expecting to find a raving lunatic is without basis in fact. How can you or anyone possibly know that they didn’t find out something that precluded him as a suspect?

            No one can know why the killer did what he did, certainly not Profilers that some treat as Oracles (when it’s convenient) No one can say for anything like certain about the killers lifestyle or history. So the suggestion that Bury might fit some aspects of a profile are hardly in conclusive territory. So we have a man who killed his wife and hid her body in a box in Scotland.

            I still say that Bury is worthy of further research and study but some of the comments that have been made about him have been, to say the least, and exaggeration. The tools that are often used to dismiss Druitt are clumsy, generic and cliched.

            So we get…..the senior police officers were idiots….the police that questioned Bury and dismissed him were idiots…..”we know that the killer would have been this type of person”…..etc. It’s far too easy to fall back on these kind of things.
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes



            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

            “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post
              The profilers of JtR were adamant he wouldn't have had a proper profession. I'm assuming that is because of traumatic early life experiences that no doubt shaped his ability to be successful e.g., sit exams, show application and dedication and determination. Even if he had been above average intelligence, he wouldn't have been able to pull himself out of his own mire of fecklessness to make anything of his life. Druitt had a profession, friends, a social network (cricket) - he had made something of his life. Druitt is a lame duck as a suspect . I'm sure his suicide was connected to went on at the school (doesn't take a genius to work out what this was). No doubt his family noticed a change in mood and behaviour, and put two and two together and made 5. Senior officials were interested in Druitt = X years/decades in job = experience and knowledge but also, I would guess, stuck in their ways, closed to new ideas, inflexible, dogmatic, willing to overlook what is actually staring them in face (you know who I mean - sacked from every job he ever had, abuser, addict, user of prostitutes, shaped by his early life experiences).


              Excellent post!



              The Baron

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by The Baron View Post



                Excellent post!



                The Baron
                Surprise, surprise.

                Can’t you go and play somewhere else?
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes



                “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                Comment


                • #98
                  I wonder if MM was deliberately misled by fellow senior officers at SY, mendaciously naming MJD as the murderer?

                  I quite favour the idea that MJD was silenced because he had knowledge of JTR's identity. I wonder if misleading MM into believing MJD was the murderer was an extension of a cover up to protect JTR?

                  Was do people think of MM being misled by his fellow officers? Is this plausible?



                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                    I wonder if MM was deliberately misled by fellow senior officers at SY, mendaciously naming MJD as the murderer?

                    I quite favour the idea that MJD was silenced because he had knowledge of JTR's identity. I wonder if misleading MM into believing MJD was the murderer was an extension of a cover up to protect JTR?

                    Was do people think of MM being misled by his fellow officers? Is this plausible?


                    Please, we have had enough of this rubbish in 'what if schwartz lied' and 'who has the goods' threads.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                      Please, we have had enough of this rubbish in 'what if schwartz lied' and 'who has the goods' threads.
                      How is this rubbish? I was merely pondering if MM was misled by his fellow officers about Druitt, that's all.
                      Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-17-2021, 11:38 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                        Please, we have had enough of this rubbish in 'what if schwartz lied' and 'who has the goods' threads.
                        FYI, the idea that MJD could have been murdered, was not a new idea and was suggested in the book "The Ripper Legacy: Life and Death of Jack the Ripper" by Keith Skinner and Martin Howells, published way back in 1987. Keith Skinner is widely accepted as one of the top researchers in Ripper studies.

                        I have my own research data, that suggests how MJD could have learnt of the identity of JTR, which is why I wonder why MM pointed the finger at MJD as JTR, when I'm sure he was not.
                        Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-17-2021, 12:47 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                          Please, we have had enough of this rubbish in 'what if schwartz lied' and 'who has the goods' threads.
                          I suppose you prefer threads like did the Ripper use a ligature just to promote your Bury obsession Wulf? Why do people get so hysterical at the mention of Druitt? He was mentioned by a very senior police officer. I know that it’s inconvenient to you but Bury was interviewed at the time and exonerated. So it’s quite reasonable to assume that they had good reason to exonerate him given that they were utterly desperate to apprehend the killer. You may not believe Druitt is a valid suspect Wulf (and you wouldn’t be alone) but he’s worthy of discussion for many. If you’re not interested then don’t take part but you appear to wish to turn these threads into a Bury only zone. What I would say is that i personally believe Druitt to be the best of the named suspects. Yes better than Bury. That is my opinion. And I have to say that I wouldn’t dream of claiming ‘case closed’ as you appear to want to over Bury. Of all the suspects Bury seems to attract a kind of exaggerated and unwarranted certainty.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes



                          “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                          “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

                            FYI, the idea that MJD could have been murdered, was not a new idea and was suggested in the book "The Ripper Legacy: Life and Death of Jack the Ripper" by Keith Skinner and Martin Howells, published way back in 1987. Keith Skinner is widely accepted as one of the top researchers in Ripper studies.

                            I have my own research data, that suggests how MJD could have learnt of the identity of JTR, which is why I wonder why MM pointed the finger at MJD as JTR, when I'm sure he was not.
                            It’s an interesting idea Martyn but because it’s not about Bury Wulf won’t be interested because he believes that all other suspects and suggestions should be dismissed and Bury proclaimed as the ripper. Gobsmacking over-confidence always creeps in on the subject of Bury.

                            Druitt’s death is certainly strange. Howells & Skinner suggested of course that Druitt was murdered because it was discovered that he was the ripper but yours is an interesting slant and certainly not impossible.
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes



                            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                            “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              I suppose you prefer threads like did the Ripper use a ligature just to promote your Bury obsession Wulf? Why do people get so hysterical at the mention of Druitt? He was mentioned by a very senior police officer. I know that it’s inconvenient to you but Bury was interviewed at the time and exonerated. So it’s quite reasonable to assume that they had good reason to exonerate him given that they were utterly desperate to apprehend the killer. You may not believe Druitt is a valid suspect Wulf (and you wouldn’t be alone) but he’s worthy of discussion for many. If you’re not interested then don’t take part but you appear to wish to turn these threads into a Bury only zone. What I would say is that i personally believe Druitt to be the best of the named suspects. Yes better than Bury. That is my opinion. And I have to say that I wouldn’t dream of claiming ‘case closed’ as you appear to want to over Bury. Of all the suspects Bury seems to attract a kind of exaggerated and unwarranted certainty.
                              what i was actually meaning was the whole conspiracy theory angle 'MM was deliberately misled by fellow senior officers at SY', 'I wonder if misleading MM into believing MJD was the murderer was an extension of a cover up to protect JTR'. sorry but this is just ridiculous.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                                I wonder if MM was deliberately misled by fellow senior officers at SY, mendaciously naming MJD as the murderer?

                                I quite favour the idea that MJD was silenced because he had knowledge of JTR's identity. I wonder if misleading MM into believing MJD was the murderer was an extension of a cover up to protect JTR?

                                Was do people think of MM being misled by his fellow officers? Is this plausible?


                                It's an interesting theory, Martyn.

                                It's hard to assess it's plausibility without knowing more about the nature of the conspiracy.

                                Personally, I tend to put the breaks on when a conspiracy theory looms into sight, but really, it's as worthy of consideration as anything else.

                                Comment

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