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The Strange Death Of Montague John Druitt

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  • #76
    Originally posted by David Andersen View Post
    .......Letter 131 on the list was sent to Scotland Yard on the 24th November 1888. All we do know about this letter is that it offered suggestions re: the Whitechapel murder. The writer of the letter was Henry Scott Tuke. Less than one week after this letter was received George Sims wrote in his newspaper column published on the 2nd December, two days before Montagues death that Commissioner Monro was on to someone.
    Was Henry Scott Tuke the man who denounced Druitt?
    Often it is what is directly under the nose that we fail to see.
    Very interesting.

    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • #77
      Just thought that I’d post these 3 points that I received as a message on JTRForums from Jon Hainsworth and Christine Ward-Agius. It’s to do with the updated version of their book The Escape Of Jack The Ripper which has 2 new chapters. It’s sure to get some hot under the collar but hey…..


      1. The paradigm that all the significant police of the era ipso facto cancel each other out with their different suspects is answered by us. We argue that everybody mistakenly thinks that their man is dead and/or a suicide. This was only true of Druitt. They have been misled by "Mac" who outranked them in class and who was an overgrown schoolboy capable of such prankish behavior (and who hated Dr. Anderson). What Mac did to deflect them all away has, accidentally, misled researchers decades later.

      2. The objection that you do not cover-up by revealing something to the public, that this makes no sense, does make perfect sense when you factor in the "North Country Vicar" of 1899. We believe this was the Rev. Charles Druitt and he forced the hands of Mac and Sims to give the public something of the truth. Admirably the pair at least did not blame the Jews, or immigrant, or the poor.

      3. The "English Patient in France" source is terrific, and matches other sources ("he has no other relative..."; "Dr. Swainson's Secret") but we do not claim it as a smoking gun. We do make this claim for the Dagonet column of November 1st 1891: in which Sims does an about-face and describes the elusive murderer as a "genius"; an English gentleman, young, respectable looking, slightly built but strong, by implication a brunette with a fair moustache, insincerely remorseful and a suicide. This means the foundation stone of "Ripperology"; that Macnaghten and his circle did not know the true details about Druitt is smashed once and for all. If Macnaghten can be shown to be a reliable source then Druitt is probably The Ripper, as nobody wanted it to be him - least of all his family who tried to "hush it up".
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes



      "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

      ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

      Comment


      • #78
        Pity a jury,when considering Druitt didn't follow the jury in the following case.
        The jury returned a verdict to the effect-
        That the deceased who was a labourer of 30 years,at the constabulary station in Kingston,and while a prisoner in the lock-up under a charge of murder,on the 18th day of January,1888,feloniously and unlawfully,and of malice aforethought,did kill and murder himself.
        He drank Carbolic Acid.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          Good point Wick. This one is one that I’ve raised before (yes I know, yawn, yawn)

          Why did Mac add Monty to his list?

          He wasn’t a criminal.

          He was of Mac’s own class in a society when this was so important.

          He was related by marriage to one of his best friends.

          Its usually said that it was because Monty conveniently died just after Kelly but... Munro, who Mac admired greatly, believed that Mackenzie was a victim , so why didn’t Mac select someone that died after Mackenzie?

          Why choose someone like Monty who (as opposed to someone like Kosminski) might easily have had an alibi somewhere (court, school, cricket, social gathering?)

          Why didn’t Mac just select some dead criminal or hopelessly insane lunatic. Or why didn’t he just leave it at Kosminski and Ostrog?

          ....

          Why name Druitt unless he genuinely felt that he had reason to do so?
          If Druitt was "suicided", as some has speculated, naming Druitt as Jack, would tie up his murder and the Whitechapel murders up with a nice neat bow.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

            If Druitt was "suicided", as some has speculated, naming Druitt as Jack, would tie up his murder and the Whitechapel murders up with a nice neat bow.
            Unless he was killed because he was actually the killer Martyn
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes



            "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

            ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

            Comment


            • #81
              Serial killers generally do not kill themselves out of grief for what they have done - that's a myth.
              Some modern mass murderers have killed themselves - like suicide bombers, which is a different issue.

              We don't have Druitt's suicide note so cannot test the handwriting to see who's it was.
              If the suicide was orchestrated by others, brother William was in a unique position to control the investigation.

              As the mother suffered from depression, claiming to kill himself so as not to be like mother is a weak argument. Most likely, in my view, he meant he didn't want to be like mother - spending her life in a mental home.
              But that is only if he did write his own suicide note.
              Yet, as he was still a practicing lawyer (barrister), why would he think his future was in jeopardy?
              There must have been some very real threat that we have not uncovered for him to take his own life.
              If so, then why couldn't his brother help him avoid this threat whatever it was?
              Or, maybe, his brother was part of this threat?

              To take your life because you don't want to spend it locked up must mean there was a very real and legitimate possibility it was going to happen, and soon.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                Just thought that I’d post these 3 points that I received as a message on JTRForums from Jon Hainsworth and Christine Ward-Agius. It’s to do with the updated version of their book The Escape Of Jack The Ripper which has 2 new chapters. It’s sure to get some hot under the collar but hey….....
                I really appreciate you posting on this thread, there was a post by David Andersen from last year I needed to find but couldn't remember what the thread was called. I've spent hours looking, then you brought this thread back to life....

                Post #73.
                In issue 165 of ‘Ripperologist’ writer David Barrat presented an article about the many letters which had been received by Scotland Yard at the time of the Ripper murders. None of the letters have survived but luckily a list of those who had sent information in to Scotland Yard had been made before the letters were routinely destroyed, the list comprises of 227 entries. As I went through the list one name jumped off the page. Letter 131 on the list was sent to Scotland Yard on the 24th November 1888. All we do know about this letter is that it offered suggestions re: the Whitechapel murder. The writer of the letter was Henry Scott Tuke. Less than one week after this letter was received George Sims wrote in his newspaper column published on the 2nd December, two days before Montagues death that Commissioner Monro was on to someone.
                Was Henry Scott Tuke the man who denounced Druitt?


                I've been looking for that reference to the letter from a Tuke to Scotland Yard.

                Thankyou much for reviving this thread.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  Unless he was killed because he was actually the killer Martyn
                  That is a good idea. Didn't think of that one.

                  I've made my views clear on this case over the years:
                  - That JTR was known to an influential part of the establishment and his murders were covered up.
                  - I believe there were connections between JTR, Astrakhan and a subset of the victims.

                  I believe JTR was a middle class chap like Druitt and the latter may have heard confidentially about the id of the killer. Perhaps he was investigating
                  the murders and was threatening to report what he knew to the authorities. He may have been killed to silence him, to protect Jack and to keep the cover up secret.

                  Though I don't believe Druitt was the murderer, I do believe he had a connection to the case (beyond Mac's memo) that hasn't been disclosed as yet.

                  I find it intriguing that virtually nothing about Druitt has come out from his family. I wonder why?





                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    I really appreciate you posting on this thread, there was a post by David Andersen from last year I needed to find but couldn't remember what the thread was called. I've spent hours looking, then you brought this thread back to life....

                    Post #73.
                    [/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE]

                    I've been looking for that reference to the letter from a Tuke to Scotland Yard.

                    Thankyou much for reviving this thread.
                    No problem Wick. It’s an intriguing to read that he kept a detailed diary all of his life but only two volumes survived and were published.

                    Just found his diary here if anyone wants to decipher 196 pages of scrawl.

                    https://www.tate.org.uk/art/archive/...ry-scott-tuke/

                    Interesting that 2 pages in there’s a drawing of cricketers.

                    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 08-03-2021, 03:09 PM.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes



                    "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                    ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

                      That is a good idea. Didn't think of that one.

                      I've made my views clear on this case over the years:
                      - That JTR was known to an influential part of the establishment and his murders were covered up.
                      - I believe there were connections between JTR, Astrakhan and a subset of the victims.

                      I believe JTR was a middle class chap like Druitt and the latter may have heard confidentially about the id of the killer. Perhaps he was investigating
                      the murders and was threatening to report what he knew to the authorities. He may have been killed to silence him, to protect Jack and to keep the cover up secret.

                      Though I don't believe Druitt was the murderer, I do believe he had a connection to the case (beyond Mac's memo) that hasn't been disclosed as yet.

                      I find it intriguing that virtually nothing about Druitt has come out from his family. I wonder why?




                      I find it interesting that Druitt’s Uncle James was writing a memoir/family history which he suddenly halted in early November 1888 only to re-start it the year that MacNaghten produced the Memorandum. In it he appears to airbrush Monty’s side of the family out of the story by saying “Now alas, no representative of the family is to be found” at Wimborne.”

                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes



                      "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                      ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        I find it interesting that Druitt’s Uncle James was writing a memoir/family history which he suddenly halted in early November 1888 only to re-start it the year that MacNaghten produced the Memorandum. In it he appears to airbrush Monty’s side of the family out of the story by saying “Now alas, no representative of the family is to be found” at Wimborne.”
                        Thanks for sharing that. It's not like the Wimborne Druitts et al weren't the very essence of respectability!

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Even though I've always been interested in the mystery of MJ Druitt, for many years I was skeptical that his inquest was anything other than the standard fare. Coupled with my own re-examination of the source materials, I suspect that John Hainsworth may have finally wore me down. I now think that something about affair is not quite 'right,' though I admit that it is more of a gut feeling than anything that can be quantified or proven.

                          If Druitt's family truly suspected that MJD was the murderer--and, to Macnaghten's mind, this was the brunt of the case against him--it would be more than a little na´ve to think that William Druitt wouldn't bend the truth if it suited him.

                          It's a great pity that there isn't a more complete account of the proceedings, and that we know so little about what went on at Valentine's school.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                            Even though I've always been interested in the mystery of MJ Druitt, for many years I was skeptical that his inquest was anything other than the standard fare. Coupled with my own re-examination of the source materials, I suspect that John Hainsworth may have finally wore me down. I now think that something about affair is not quite 'right,' though I admit that it is more of a gut feeling than anything that can be quantified or proven.

                            If Druitt's family truly suspected that MJD was the murderer--and, to Macnaghten's mind, this was the brunt of the case against him--it would be more than a little na´ve to think that William Druitt wouldn't bend the truth if it suited him.

                            It's a great pity that there isn't a more complete account of the proceedings, and that we know so little about what went on at Valentine's school.
                            I’m of the same opinion Roger. I also wish that we could see the note that he left for William. Was anything written apart from the quoted part?
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes



                            "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                            ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              What are people's thoughts on Druitt's supposed insanity?

                              He seems to be functioning well at his profession and cricket right up to his death. No evidence either way re his work as a schoolmaster.

                              What hard evidence or even clues are there to indicate any insanity?

                              None really is there?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                                What are people's thoughts on Druitt's supposed insanity?

                                He seems to be functioning well at his profession and cricket right up to his death. No evidence either way re his work as a schoolmaster.

                                What hard evidence or even clues are there to indicate any insanity?

                                None really is there?


                                Absolutely nothing.

                                He won a case in a court just before he died.

                                Macnaghten was a tea merchant, he was just repeating what he heard.


                                The Baron

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