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The Strange Death Of Montague John Druitt

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    thans herlock.

    the way mac worded it dosnt sound like he heard from any direct family member.
    Majendie appears to be a likely possible intermediary. Connected to the Druitt’s by marriage and a close friend of Mac’s. Though no certainty’s of course Abby. Like a lot of ripper-related stuff the truth is always frustratingly just out of reach. Whether Monty was the ripper or not I still find the events surrounding his death interesting. You know that I’m no conspiracy theorist but I think there’s at least a possibility that he might have been murdered.
    Regards

    Herlock




    “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
    As night descends upon this fabled street:
    A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
    The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
    Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
    And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

    Comment


    • #17
      Jon Hainsworth believes that Henry Farquharson received his information about Monty from the Reverend Charles Druitt - which of course could have been the case but could there have been a different link?

      Isabella Druitt (Charles Druitt’s mother and family matriarch) informs her daughter Emily (in an angst-filled letter according to JH where she says that she feels that she’ll never be rid of this ‘encumbrance’) that she’s been to Cavendish Square. This is where Crawford lived. Crawford and Farquharson were both Tory m.p’s.

      So could the chain have been Charles confided in his mother who goes to see Crawford who then, for whatever reason, discusses the matter with fellow Tory m.p Farquharson? Could it have been because he was a Dorset m.p and Crawford felt it best to have someone on hand that he’d have influence over to liaise with William so that they might ‘manage’ the situation? Farquharson turned out to have been a poor choice of confidante though.

      Just a suggestion of course.
      Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 10-15-2020, 10:52 PM.
      Regards

      Herlock




      “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
      As night descends upon this fabled street:
      A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
      The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
      Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
      And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        Majendie appears to be a likely possible intermediary. Connected to the Druitt’s by marriage and a close friend of Mac’s. Though no certainty’s of course Abby. Like a lot of ripper-related stuff the truth is always frustratingly just out of reach. Whether Monty was the ripper or not I still find the events surrounding his death interesting. You know that I’m no conspiracy theorist but I think there’s at least a possibility that he might have been murdered.
        Have you read The Ripper Legacy, by Howells & Skinner?
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          Jon Hainsworth believes that Henry Farquharson received his information about Monty from the Reverend Charles Druitt - which of course could have been the case but could there have been a different link?

          Isabella Druitt (Charles Druitt’s mother and family matriarch) informs her daughter Emily (in an angst-filled letter according to JH where she says that she feels that she’ll never be rid of this ‘encumbrance’) that she’s been to Cavendish Square. This is where Crawford lived. Crawford and Farquharson were both Tory m.p’s.

          So could the chain have been Charles confided in his mother who goes to see Crawford who then, for whatever reason, discusses the matter with fellow Tory m.p Farquharson? Could it have been because he was a Dorset m.p and Crawford felt it best to have someone on hand that he’d have influence over to liaise with William so that they might ‘manage’ the situation? Farquharson turned out to have been a poor choice of confidante though.

          Just a suggestion of course.
          The question of which family member(s) might have suspected Monty, should always include the senior member of the family. The one family member who makes all the decisions, and that will be William.
          So, (assuming its true), regardless who suspected anything, that family member would have approached William and discussed their suspicions with him. That was just a matter of respect & formality.
          No action would be taken without William's authorization.

          The problem for us today is, the one member of the family who was responsible to guard & defend the family reputation, is also the one person who is our only real informant.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Have you read The Ripper Legacy, by Howells & Skinner?
            Not for some years. It’s on my ‘to re-read’ list.
            Regards

            Herlock




            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
            As night descends upon this fabled street:
            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              The question of which family member(s) might have suspected Monty, should always include the senior member of the family. The one family member who makes all the decisions, and that will be William.
              So, (assuming its true), regardless who suspected anything, that family member would have approached William and discussed their suspicions with him. That was just a matter of respect & formality.
              No action would be taken without William's authorization.

              The problem for us today is, the one member of the family who was responsible to guard & defend the family reputation, is also the one person who is our only real informant.
              And as William was the first point of contact for the unnamed friend he was the one positioned to do a damage limitation exercise for the family reputation and we have no way of knowing what information he might have kept from the public gaze; or for what reason?
              Regards

              Herlock




              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
              As night descends upon this fabled street:
              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

              Comment


              • #22
                Sadly we will never know the answer to any of this. It can only remain pure speculation. Monty "got into trouble" at George Valentine's school and was sacked. I don't believe there was anything sinister about this poor, depressed man's death. As he wrote himself: "Since Friday I felt like I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die." Why was he dismissed from Valentine's school? We will never know. Some have speculated that it was for a homosexual offense, and judging from McNaghten's notes, it seems that "sexual insanity" may bave been a Victorian euphemisn for homosexuality. But I don't know if that's true, and anyway it doesn't seem to fit with Druitt's remarks about his mother. I'm more inclined to guess that he had some explosion of rage at that school which he vented on somebody, for which he was dismissed as a result. Perhaps it wasn't the first time. Perhaps, despite his talents, he'd been unstable all along.

                We shall never know. It will remain one of life's mysteries. But it is interesting if his brother William claimed at his inquest that he "had no other relatives." Perhaps he was protecting other family members from what was perceived back then as the shame and disgrace of insanity in a family member.

                Apart from William, Montague had a notable brother Edward, a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Royal Engineers, who conducted the inquiry into the Quintinshill rail disaster of 1915. It was the worst ever tragedy in the history of British rail, in which 227 people were killed. Anyone who's interested can read it here in the words of Edward Druitt himself:

                Sir,

                I have the honour to report for the information of the Board of Trade, in compliance with your Order of the 22nd May, the result of my Inquiry into the causes of the double collision which occurred on the 22nd May, between passenger trains at Quintinshill on the Caledonian Railway.

                [Rest of the comprehensive report omitted]

                I have the honour, etc.,
                E Druitt,
                Lieut.-Col.


                In those days I guess it was sad that people felt they had to cover up any hint of insanity within an otherwise illustrious family. I don't believe there was anything mysterious about Montague's death, just the curse of clinical depression, a waste of a good man who, with modern medications, might have been a good barrister. May he rest in peace!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                  I don’t have any books with me to check at the moment Wick but yes I’m pretty sure that there was mention of letters addressed to William and George Valentine which doesn’t help clarity....

                  Also I’ve always thought it a bit strange that it was said that Monty’s “...things had been searched where he resided.” I might be overthinking this bit but it sounds as if they didn’t want the place where he had been living mentioning. There was also no mention of George Valentine at the Inquest.
                  The Dorset Chronicle 10 Jan seems to indicate that two letters were found;

                  ​​​​​​"The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, "Since Friday, I have felt as if I was going to be like mother," who had for some months been mentally afflicted."

                  So it doesn't seem that the Valentine connection was covered up.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    . We shall never know. It will remain one of life's mysteries. But it is interesting if his brother William claimed at his inquest that he "had no other relatives." Perhaps he was protecting other family members from what was perceived back then as the shame and disgrace of insanity in a family member
                    Hello Gordon,

                    The issue that we have with that explanation is that, in the same statement, William tells that his mother has been committed to an asylum. Also, in a Hampshire newspaper the report mentions 5 Druitt’s at the funeral. As Monty lived and worked in London wouldn’t William have accepted the possibility of this report reaching the London papers too?
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                    As night descends upon this fabled street:
                    A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                    The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                    Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                    And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                      The Dorset Chronicle 10 Jan seems to indicate that two letters were found;

                      ​​​​​​"The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, "Since Friday, I have felt as if I was going to be like mother," who had for some months been mentally afflicted."

                      So it doesn't seem that the Valentine connection was covered up.
                      Thanks for that Joshua.

                      It was mentioned at the Inquest that Monty had made no previous suicide attempts implying of course that his actual suicide was unexpected. If there was a note left with Valentine, and it was known about, I wonder why it wasn’t bought up at The Inquest as proof that suicide had been on Monty’s mind?

                      If there were two notes I wonder why the impression given was that there was only one?
                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                      As night descends upon this fabled street:
                      A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                      The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                      Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                      And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                        It's been over two decades since I rode a train in London, but it doesn't look like one can travel directly from Charing Cross Underground to Hammersmith nowadays. There's not a line that has both stops. So that ticket doesn't make sense.

                        I think what is being called 'Charing Cross' at the inquest is was what is now called Embankment. The best stop on the South Eastern line for Druitt to reach KBW would have been Cannon Street. So, assuming Druitt started his last trip from Blackheath, he must have blown past his usual stop, and stepped off the train at Charing Cross (Embankment) and then transferred to a train that went to Hammersmith. Which would suggest that he had no desire to make one final curtain call at chambers.

                        On the other hand, he could have simply walked to the Embankment from KBW and bought the ticket to Hammersmith.

                        So it doesn't really tell us a damned thing. But the suicide note was supposedly left at Blackheath, so it seems strange that he would go to KBW and tidy up his desk before plunging in the Thames in the middle of the winter.
                        Hi RJ,

                        Charing Cross Underground Station has a confusing history, but thinking 'green' makes it easier. By October 1884, Metropolitan District Line trains [the green line on a tube map] ran from Whitechapel in the east, via Earl's Court to Hammersmith and beyond in the west, or south to Wimbledon. Westbound District Line trains stopped at Cannon Street and Charing Cross on the way to Hammersmith with no changes necessary, unless you caught a Wimbledon train and had to change at Earl's Court. All still on the green line.

                        That was still the case when I was at grammar school, between 1965 and 1971, when I travelled from Southfields to Hammersmith each day, which meant I had to change at Earl's Court both ways, because Wimbledon trains can only go north or east from Earl's Court, not west towards Hammersmith. Still green all the way.

                        The District Line route to Hammersmith from Cannon Street remains the same today as it was for Monty in 1888, except that by 1979 Charing Cross Underground had its name changed to the more geographically correct Embankment, when Trafalgar Square and Strand stations [neither on the District Line] combined to form today's Charing Cross Station, which is on the Bakerloo [brown], Jubilee [grey] and Northern [black] Lines.

                        So yes, you are quite correct that you have to change lines if you want to go from today's Charing Cross [brown/grey/black] to Hammersmith [green]. The Charing Cross mentioned at Monty's inquest is now called Embankment [same station, still green].

                        But no, Monty didn't need to step off at Charing Cross in 1888 in order to get a train to Hammersmith. Complications only arise if he got on a Wimbledon train by mistake, in which case he'd have needed to change at Earl's Court [or one of the stops along the way] and wait on the same platform for the right train.

                        Sorry if I didn't explain that very clearly!

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • #27
                          What if he was sacked on 3 Dec as the evidence says, sacked fr being AWOL.
                          G U T

                          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gordon View Post
                            Sadly we will never know the answer to any of this. It can only remain pure speculation. Monty "got into trouble" at George Valentine's school and was sacked. I don't believe there was anything sinister about this poor, depressed man's death. As he wrote himself: "Since Friday I felt like I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die." Why was he dismissed from Valentine's school? We will never know. Some have speculated that it was for a homosexual offense, and judging from McNaghten's notes, it seems that "sexual insanity" may bave been a Victorian euphemisn for homosexuality.....
                            Two things here....
                            - After reading the "Since Friday...." note, we automatically assume Monty was concerned about being diagnosed with the same condition as his mother, a mixture of; melancholia, delusions, depression & apathy.
                            However, Ann (his mother) had been taken ill since the death of her husband in 1885, and so for three years had been either treated &/or incarcerated, first in Brooke House Asylum in July 1888, where she was certified insane, then to St. George's Retreat, Brighton.
                            Maybe Monty was not so much concerned about the same diagnosis, but the fact his mother was certified insane and incarcerated in an Asylum. He didn't want to end up like mother - incarcerated in an asylum?

                            - One previous poster spent quite some time going through 19th century literature and posted his results on Casebook. He found that the term "sexual insanity" was used for people who committed rape or other heterosexual offenses, on occasion homosexual acts, but mostly heterosexual.
                            The school was certainly a boys school, but we found a posting of employees from that period and it appears there were several maids & female kitchen staff employed at the school. So, it is by no means obvious that Macnaghten was referring to homosexuality.

                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by GUT View Post
                              What if he was sacked on 3 Dec as the evidence says, sacked fr being AWOL.
                              Hi GUT,

                              The 3rd December is possibly the day that Monty was last seen. The unnamed friend said that Monty hadn’t been seen for over a week (from 11th Dec) I’m working from memory but I don’t think we have definitive evidence that Monty was sacked on the 30th? But when it was said that William arrived in London on 30th December it’s unlikely that he’d have taken 19 days when his brother was missing. This is more likely to have meant the date that Monty was sacked 30th November instead of December. Also 30 November was a Friday which accords with his note “since Friday...”

                              I can’t think of a reason why your suggestion couldn’t be a possibility though GUT?
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                              As night descends upon this fabled street:
                              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Sorry crap typing I meant what if he was sacked 30 Dec as per the evidence, possibly for being awol
                                G U T

                                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                                Comment

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