Reasons why?

[mpriestnall]

My view on Druitt FWIW:

1. Definitely NOT JTR.
2. Murdered by a masonic cabal to keep him quiet about the knowledge he had of JTR's and Astrakhan's identities.

I suspect this will not be a popular point of view.

[mpriestnall]

I am quite sure that I am not exaggerating.

You describe one of Macnaghten's errors as an enigma and another as a puzzle.

Macnaghten was drafting an official report and had access to official files.

Do you really find it believable that in those files there was mention of Druitt being a doctor, of his sexual insanity, of Kosminski's homicidal tendencies, that Druitt died about three weeks before he did, that Kosminski was certified nearly two years before he was, that there was an eyewitness description of a suspect near Mitre Square that matched Kosminski's, and that Ostrog was a homicidal maniac?

If not, then where do you suppose he got all that incorrect information from?

From whole cloth made up out of thin air?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Just bear in mind that our Kozminskite friends will argue that Reid was kept 'out of the loop.'

I know, but what they cannot possibly explain is why Abberline would have been 'kept out of the loop'.

In particular, Anderson claimed that Scotland Yard decided, in or shortly after October 1888, that the murderer had to be a Polish Jew.

If this were true, then why would Abberline have continued to look for Gentile suspects and ultimately conclude that the murderer had likely been a Polish Gentile?

[rjpalmer]

I do know.

Anderson was challenged in public to cite evidence in support of his allegations.

He was unable to do so.

(My emphasis in bold).

I think you'll find that I'm not Sir Robert Anderson's greatest fan. There are legitimate reasons for doubting his 'solution.'

However, you've got your foot to the accelerator and are racing over speed bumps...which isn't a particularly good way to proceed.

Edmund Reid did indeed challenge Anderson in a published statement.

Anderson didn't respond.

I can't, in good conscience, conclude that he was unable to respond.

Only that he didn't.

I don't think it does anyone any good to go beyond what the evidence allows us to reasonably conclude.

To me, a better way of thinking about it is that Reid was confident and emboldened enough to make the challenge in the first place.

Just bear in mind that our Kozminskite friends will argue that Reid was kept 'out of the loop.'

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In fact, you don't know that Anderson or Macnaghten were unable to cite any evidence against their suspects--only that they didn't. That's a heck of a distinction.

I do know.

Anderson was challenged in public to cite evidence in support of his allegations.

He was unable to do so.

Look at what he actually wrote and what he left out!

He mentions a search of people's homes, which we know produced no leads.

If there had been any evidence against the suspect resulting from a search, then he would have mentioned the search that yielded evidence against the suspect and not a search that did not yield evidence against the suspect!

The very fact that in his initial version of what happened, the suspect was already confined in an asylum at the time that the identification took place suggests that he was not a suspect at all, because if he had been a suspect then the identification would surely have been arranged before he was confined in an asylum!

It should be obvious to anyone who has read the interview with Anderson in which he referred to his suspect as 'the murderer,' in spite of the fact that no trial ever took place, that he was not giving a factual account of what really happened.

It's a complicated discussion, and one I don't really wish to get into a shouting match over.

That is why I have avoided using bold type - in order to spare your senses, Roger.

[rjpalmer]

The question is: why, when he was compiling a formal report, he appears not to have consulted the files at all..

It was not a "formal report" on Druitt or Kozminski.

It was a rebuttal to The Sun's accusations against Thomas Cutbush. That was the focus of the report.

His 'thumbnail' sketch of Druitt is comprised of two sentences.

His sketch of Kozminski is four sentences, one separated by a semi-colon.

Considering that it is not the main consideration of his report, he appears to have been going largely or entirely by memory in this section.

As my old boss used to say, "it is what it is."

It's your task to make sense of it. If you simply wish to throw it into the garbage bin, by all means do so.

As for me, I find it an interesting document in many ways. Plenty of enigmas and puzzles to work out. A peek--but only a partial and imperfect one--under the tent.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Where Mac. had things wrong, that can be proven wrong, is likely because he didn't consult the files as often as he should.

It is not a question of how often he consulted the files.

The question is: why, when he was compiling a formal report, he appears not to have consulted the files at all.

It is likely to me that the principal source about Kozminski was his superior - Anderson, and when your superior tells you something, you don't write the complete opposite. It also suggests to me there were no official files on Kozminski that shows him to be a significant suspect.

If Anderson really knew the truth about Kosminski and it was as explosive as he made it out to be, then why would there not have been a file containing such information about him?

And if such a file existed, then why would Macnaghten not have consulted it and, at the same time, consulted all the other files and not made all the mistakes he did?

And if he got his information from Anderson and if Swanson got his information from Anderson, then why does Swanson have Kosminski dying soon after the last murder was committed, whereas Macnaghten has him still being alive more than five years later?

And if Swanson got his information from Anderson, then why did Anderson indicate to his publishers that Kosminski was still alive more than 20 years after the murders ended?

This thread though is about Druitt, and I'd like to know what makes you think he was not 'sexually insane'?

I know there are no official papers describing his mental condition, so I know that you don't know, one way or the other.

Macnaghten made several mistakes regarding medical matters: he thought Druitt was a doctor, and he thought he was qualified to diagnose insanity in the cases of both Druitt and Ostrog and to discern homicidal tendencies in Kosminski.

Why did no-one else mention Druitt's alleged insanity?

According to Abberline, there was absolutely nothing to suggest that Druitt was the Whitechapel Murderer.

The person who didn't 'know one way or the other' is Macnaghten.

[rjpalmer]

Because he was obviously unable to cite any medical opinion in support of what he claimed.

Similarly, Anderson called his suspect 'the murderer', even though he was obviously unable to cite any incriminating evidence against him.

No; it's not "obvious."

Both men were simply giving very brief sketches of their suspects in a broader context.

Having a number of friends among the Druitt and Kozminski theorists, I think they would object to your word 'unable.'

In fact, you don't know that Anderson or Macnaghten were unable to cite any evidence against their suspects--only that they didn't. That's a heck of a distinction.

I operate on the entirely sensible position that, on some level, Anderson and Macnaghten--whether they were correct, or not--had some reason to suspect these two men and didn't simply draw their names out of thin air.

As such, I am interested in exploring, in an intelligent way, why they might have believed this.

It's a complicated discussion, and one I don't really wish to get into a shouting match over.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

How do you know it is untrue?

Because he was obviously unable to cite any medical opinion in support of what he claimed.

Similarly, Anderson called his suspect 'the murderer', even though he was obviously unable to cite any incriminating evidence against him.

Macnaghten and Anderson were making unsupported and exaggerated claims about all kinds of things.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

He got Druitt's age wrong--a mathematical error of some kind? 41 for 31 seems like an odd 'mistake'--and his reference to a 'doctor' is an enigma--but claiming the memo is error-filled is an exaggeration.

There is a similar puzzle in the thumbnail description of Kozminski--the date of his supposed committal--but much of the rest of it seems reasonably accurate as far as we can tell.

I am quite sure that I am not exaggerating.

You describe one of Macnaghten's errors as an enigma and another as a puzzle.

Macnaghten was drafting an official report and had access to official files.

Do you really find it believable that in those files there was mention of Druitt being a doctor, of his sexual insanity, of Kosminski's homicidal tendencies, that Druitt died about three weeks before he did, that Kosminski was certified nearly two years before he was, that there was an eyewitness description of a suspect near Mitre Square that matched Kosminski's, and that Ostrog was a homicidal maniac?

If not, then where do you suppose he got all that incorrect information from?

[rjpalmer]

I know there are no official papers describing his mental condition, so I know that you don't know, one way or the other.

Sorry. You beat me to it.

As some of us will recall, Macnaghten had a familial relationship to the Druitts, as did one of his good friends.

He got Druitt's age wrong--a mathematical error of some kind? 41 for 31 seems like an odd 'mistake'--and his reference to a 'doctor' is an enigma--but claiming the memo is error-filled is an exaggeration.

There is a similar puzzle in the thumbnail description of Kozminski--the date of his supposed committal--but much of the rest of it seems reasonably accurate as far as we can tell.

Too many 'Ripperologists' are eager to toss out the bathwater, not bothering to even wonder if there's a baby somewhere in the bubbles.

[rjpalmer]

He said that Druitt was sexually insane, which is untrue.

How do you know it is untrue?

[Wickerman]

Why does anyone get anything wrong, often because they write from memory. The difference between Anderson, Swanson, etc. & Macnaghten is they couldn't access files when they wrote their memoirs.
Where Mac. had things wrong, that can be proven wrong, is likely because he didn't consult the files as often as he should.
It is likely to me that the principal source about Kozminski was his superior - Anderson, and when your superior tells you something, you don't write the complete opposite. It also suggests to me there were no official files on Kozminski that shows him to be a significant suspect.

This thread though is about Druitt, and I'd like to know what makes you think he was not 'sexually insane'?
I know there are no official papers describing his mental condition, so I know that you don't know, one way or the other.
One suggestion has been raised about those rooms his brother had to search, that it wasn't likely at Elliot Place, or his Chambers, but there is a suspicion he might have been staying at the family friends place - the Manor House Asylum, Chiswick. The place where his mother died.

Practically everything that has come to light in recent years is conjecture, there are suggestions due to rumors, or possibilities, because of a letter here, or a remark there. If the family wanted something about Montie kept quiet they did a good job, but some clues are difficult to explain otherwise.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Some details he still had wrong ...

About a dozen.

What he said about Kosminski was wrong.

He claimed there were many circumstances that made him a strong suspect, that he had strong homicidal tendencies, that he strongly resembled a suspect seen near Mitre Square, and backdated his incarceration by almost two years.

Where do you suppose he got all that incorrect information from?

He said that Druitt was sexually insane, which is untrue.
Where do you think he got that from - private information?

And again, to spice things up, he backdates the date of his death by about three weeks, to shortly after the time of the final murder.

Where do you think he got that information from - the official files?

He claimed that Ostrog was a homicidal maniac, which is untrue.

Where do you think he got that information from - the official files?

[Wickerman]

How much of what Macnaghten wrote would you hold onto?

With Macnaghten it is a little different because he at least wrote his memorandum while he still had access to police files, it's not the same as a memoir written long after the fact. Some details he still had wrong, I acknowledge that, but a man in his position is going to get information that was not the result of police investigation. I'm just saying we shouldn't dismiss what he told us on the flimsy grounds that there was no evidence. The whole point of telling him of suspicions could have been to keep it quiet.
Wealthy families never did like gossip, especially about mental issues within the family.
Andy Spallek did find some intriguing details about Druitt, and so has Jonathan Hainsworth.

I wouldn't dismiss all what Mac. says simply because there is only him saying it. These families had connections that go way back to their college days, so behind the scene's a number of them were closer than the public might think.