Reasons why?

[Wickerman]

It's from My Life and a Few Yarns by H. L. Fleet.

Fleet discusses moving back to Blackheath in 1895 and remarks:

"When we lived there formerly, it was considered dangerous, for a terrible series of crimes committed by Jack the Ripper were then being perpetrated, and many people believed he lived in Blackheath."

See Hainsworth, p. 112-113.

The 1891 UK Census shows Admiral Henry Fleet living in Minster in Sheppey, so presumably he was in Blackheath before this. I don't have a hard date or address.

Thankyou R.J., precisely, if that account is accurate I am left wondering how could 'many people' believe the Ripper lived in Blackheath, if there was never any suspicions, even private ones, about Druitt. Don't we wish that Fleet could have elaborated on that remark.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I fully accept that the info could have been wrong/inaccurate or that Macnaghten himself could have misjudged its significance or strength.

Would you not agree with me that in order for someone to have become a serious suspect, there would have had to be some reason to suppose that he had been frequenting the areas where the murders were committed when they were committed?

That point stands regardless of whether the suspect had an alibi on the strength of his cricketing tour of Dorset.

Druitt lived eight miles away from Whitechapel or Spitalfields and had no known lodgings in that area.

The double murders were committed at such times that he would not have been able to catch a train back home for hours afterwards.

The fact that he was in Dorset on a cricketing tour means that he could not have been stalking prostitutes in Whitechapel for any length of time during that tour.

It also means that if his relatives knew enough about his movements to have reason to suspect him, then they should have known about his trip to Dorset.

And if they knew about his trip to Dorset, why would they have suspected him?

There would have had to be something to connect him with Whitechapel or Spitalfields and it is evident that there was not.

No incriminating evidence was ever mentioned.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You'd have to say that his 'rational theory' and three suspects analysis, is more or less worthless (in terms of the psychology of the WM and the suspect status of 'the three more likely suspects').

I agree.

As for his suicide theory:


In one case in France, Francois Vérove, an ex-policeman, on realising that the net was closing in on him, took his own life.

In a case in the Soviet Union, after being informed that he had been convicted of murder, Anatoly Maistruk, a Ukrainian, committed suicide.

In another case in the Soviet Union, Vyacheslav Markin, a Russian, committed suicide while awaiting trial for murder.

Another Russian, Denis Gorbunov, committed suicide two days after having been sentenced to life imprisonment for murder.

Yet another Russian, Artyom Grabovoi, committed suicide upon learning that he was being investigated for a murder he was later proven to have committed.

Yet another Russian, Andrey Yezhov, committed suicide after confessing to five murders and before he could be charged.

There have been many other cases of serial killers in the Soviet Union committing suicide in prison.


The point I am making is that they had rational reasons for committing suicide.

None of them committed suicide soon after having committed the last murder in a series, and without any reason to suppose that they were going to be brought to justice, which is what Macnaghten suggested.


His alternative theory, that shortly after the last murder in the series, the murderer was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations that they had to have him confined in an asylum again does not fit any known serial killer.

Why would a serial murderer suddenly become certifiably insane after committing a murder?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now you're talking my kind of language, Herlock.

Id call this my starting point PI. I fully accept that the info could have been wrong/inaccurate or that Macnaghten himself could have misjudged its significance or strength. But if there’s one thing that I feel a level of confidence in is that Macnaghten didn’t just pluck Druitt’s name out of thin air because of the timing of his suicide. I’ve been of this opinion for years - ever since I first read Farson where he said something like ‘it’s Druitt’s unlikeliness that makes him intriguing.’ To me, his naming of Druitt is like some criminologist saying ‘I think that Bible John was either Peter Tobin, John Irvine McInnes or Billy Connolly!” Everyone would ask why the hell was Connolly on the list? He was in Glasgow and was 26 at the time.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I know my answer is not going to be that satisfying to anyone, but I don't find the reason for Druitt being JTR that saisfying either.

Macnaghten's memorandum revealed his reasoning on Druitt. Prior to naming the 'three more likely suspects', he laid it out as follows:

It will be noticed that the fury of the mutilations increased in each case, and, seemingly, the appetite only became sharpened by indulgence. It seems, then, highly improbable that the murderer would have suddenly stopped in November '88, and been content to recommence operations by merely prodding a girl behind some 2 years & 4 months afterwards. A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide, or, as a possible alternative, was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations, that he was by them confined in some asylum.

In sum:

1) Macnaghten believed that Mary's murder was the culmination of an evolutionary cycle and the WM couldn't have gone on to commit a crime involving a lesser degree of violence.

2) The WM wouldn't have stopped and therefore he must have committed suicide or he was committed to an asylum, and this includes a belief that Mary was his last murder which in turn was driven by his evolutionary cycle belief.

Experience suggests Macnaghten was wrong on point 2. No serial killer in England has ever successfully filed an insanity plea, nor have any committed suicide (I think, not fully sure on that one). I suppose there are serial killers all over the world and you may find a few who buck the trend.

Point 1 is debatable. Piquerism is under-researched but it is a broad term which includes cuts of varying severity and depth, and there is some evidence that the WM committed acts that broadly conform to the generally accepted definition of piquerism. Cutbush or otherwise, research suggests that sexual serial killers experiment during a crime series and the experimentation can happen anywhere within that crime series, which isn't in line with Macnaghten's 'evolutionary cycle' theory.

Either way, Macnaghten was getting out of his area of expertise: he was a policeman and this part of his memorandum was a crude delve into the psychology of a serial killer, complete with next to no experience of that rare phenomenon.

You'd have to say that his 'rational theory' and three suspects analysis, is more or less worthless (in terms of the psychology of the WM and the suspect status of 'the three more likely suspects').

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

A man who, if someone looked into his life, might have been discovered to have had an alibi, for eg. a court appearance or some school or cricket-related business.

Now you're talking my kind of language, Herlock.

[Sunny Delight]

We've had long debates on that, opinions expressed in the late 19th century, as opposed to today, suggest he meant 'oversexed', if I recall correctly.
The idea he was gay is modern, based primarily on the fact he taught at a boys school. But we also looked at the employees at the school and there were female cleaners & cookery staff listed, so it is not true to suggest he surrounded himself with boys. Separate schools for boys and girls was the norm for the middle class and above, in his day.

Believe it or not Wick, here in Ireland separate boys and girls schools are still the predominant feature and that is true for boys from all classes.

[Lewis C]

We've had long debates on that, opinions expressed in the late 19th century, as opposed to today, suggest he meant 'oversexed', if I recall correctly.
The idea he was gay is modern, based primarily on the fact he taught at a boys school. But we also looked at the employees at the school and there were female cleaners & cookery staff listed, so it is not true to suggest he surrounded himself with boys. Separate schools for boys and girls was the norm for the middle class and above, in his day.

In case I was unclear, I wasn't implying that his teaching at a boys school should lead us to suspect that he was gay. I just meant that to be one possible example of something that a Victorian might be referring to when he called someone "sexually insane".

[Herlock Sholmes]

At the time - maybe, but since, we have found out so much circumstantial evidence, rumors, beliefs, etc., that Druitt was a possible candidate. Herlock will remember this better than I do, but there was a 19th century rumor that Jack the Ripper had lived at Blackheath, or something like that. I should look it up, but where on earth could a rumor like that have come from if suspicion about Druitt was only remarked on by Mac. in that memorandum, and nowhere else?
There's more to this line of thinking than we know of.

I was about to leap into action Wick because it’s rare for me to be giving info to you (it’s usually the other way) but Mr P has beaten me to it. I believe that the quote he posted was originally discovered by Paul Begg.

[rjpalmer]

The 1891 UK Census shows Admiral Henry Fleet living in Minster in Sheppey, so presumably he was in Blackheath before this. I don't have a hard date or address.

I lied to you, Wick .

I rechecked my notes and I do have an address for Henry Fleet in 1888. He was living at The Grove, Blackheath in November 1888, where his wife gave birth to a son.

It looks like it was about a 10-minute walk from 9 Eliot Place.

[Sunny Delight]

Exactly Abby. The info might not have been accurate but Macnaghten clearly felt it was good. Maybe Druitt was just behaving strangely and something about his behaviour made his family suspicious? Maybe he came home on the night of one of the murders with blood on him…but perhaps he’d just gotten into a fight? It’s difficult to see a family like the Druitt’s raising suspicions about Monty unless they had felt that they had reason to though. In the absence of more evidence I just think that it’s better to keep an open mind on Druitt….even if someone thinks him a weak suspect. As many do of course.

We can only speculate on what MM heard, however due to the fact Druitt committed suicide he may have been acting in a way deemed out of character for quite some time. Who knows how long he battled suicidal thoughts? Maybe his family felt retrospectively that he was behaving this way due to the murders he committed. Who knows. We do know a lot more about mental health issues now though and how it can affect personality for months leading up to a suicide attempt.

[rjpalmer]

At the time - maybe, but since, we have found out so much circumstantial evidence, rumors, beliefs, etc., that Druitt was a possible candidate. Herlock will remember this better than I do, but there was a 19th century rumor that Jack the Ripper had lived at Blackheath, or something like that. I should look it up, but where on earth could a rumor like that have come from if suspicion about Druitt was only remarked on by Mac. in that memorandum, and nowhere else?
There's more to this line of thinking than we know of.

It's from My Life and a Few Yarns by H. L. Fleet.

Fleet discusses moving back to Blackheath in 1895 and remarks:

"When we lived there formerly, it was considered dangerous, for a terrible series of crimes committed by Jack the Ripper were then being perpetrated, and many people believed he lived in Blackheath."

See Hainsworth, p. 112-113.

The 1891 UK Census shows Admiral Henry Fleet living in Minster in Sheppey, so presumably he was in Blackheath before this. I don't have a hard date or address.

[Wickerman]

I used the same word - afterthought - in a post about a year ago, about both Kosminski and Druitt.

It was only because Kosminski was confined in an asylum and Druitt committed suicide that they became 'suspects'.

At the time - maybe, but since, we have found out so much circumstantial evidence, rumors, beliefs, etc., that Druitt was a possible candidate. Herlock will remember this better than I do, but there was a 19th century rumor that Jack the Ripper had lived at Blackheath, or something like that. I should look it up, but where on earth could a rumor like that have come from if suspicion about Druitt was only remarked on by Mac. in that memorandum, and nowhere else?
There's more to this line of thinking than we know of.

[Herlock Sholmes]

yes it would be. MM put him forward as a suspect despite the family friends tie and same upper class status because he heard that someone in druitts family suspected him as the ripper, and MM felt it was reliable info. we dont know the reasons why his family suspected but it was enough for MM, a man, who as you say, would have had access to info to point to any number of other valid suspects. yet he went with Druitt. So unless info comes up that absolutely exonnerates Druitt, like ostrog, then a valid suspect he remains.

Exactly Abby. The info might not have been accurate but Macnaghten clearly felt it was good. Maybe Druitt was just behaving strangely and something about his behaviour made his family suspicious? Maybe he came home on the night of one of the murders with blood on him…but perhaps he’d just gotten into a fight? It’s difficult to see a family like the Druitt’s raising suspicions about Monty unless they had felt that they had reason to though. In the absence of more evidence I just think that it’s better to keep an open mind on Druitt….even if someone thinks him a weak suspect. As many do of course.

[Abby Normal]

Why do you assume this to be the case in regard to Druitt? Macnaghten said that he'd received information which led him to consider Druitt a suspect. Yes we don't know what that information was but why should we assume that it never existed?

As I've asked before - why, if he was simply looking for a name to add to his 'better than Cutbush' list, didn't he pick a more convincing suspect than Druitt? A man in Macnaghten's position would have had his pick from any number of dead criminals, lower class suicides, dead vagrants and incarcerated or dead lunatics. Any of which he could have named without risk of comebacks. Yet he chose an well-to-do Barrister who also worked at a posh school. A man who was related by marriage to one of his best friends. A man who, if someone looked into his life, might have been discovered to have had an alibi, for eg. a court appearance or some school or cricket-related business.

Don't you find it strange to say the least that Mcnaghten, a part of the upper class establishment, would have randomly suggested someone like Druitt as the ripper knowing full well that he was entirely innocence?

yes it would be. MM put him forward as a suspect despite the family friends tie and same upper class status because he heard that someone in druitts family suspected him as the ripper, and MM felt it was reliable info. we dont know the reasons why his family suspected but it was enough for MM, a man, who as you say, would have had access to info to point to any number of other valid suspects. yet he went with Druitt. So unless info comes up that absolutely exonnerates Druitt, like ostrog, then a valid suspect he remains.