Does anything rule Bury out?

[John G]

The graffiti might just have been a lame-brained attempt to deflect the blame.

Yes, that's a possibility. However, in that scenario Bury would effectively be acknowledging that he's committed a "similar" therefore copycat, murder.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, that's a possibility. However, in that scenario Bury would effectively be acknowledging that he's committed a "similar" therefore copycat, murder.

Interesting point, although that would depend on whether he wrote the graffiti before the crime, or as an afterthought.

[Harry D]

So how do we explain all of these coincidences and apparent copycat crimes? Could it be down to gang activity? Could two serial offenders be working together? That, at least, isn't unprecedented: see, for example, Duffy and Mulcahy.

Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

And that's without including the Thames Torso series.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

To be honest, I'm thinking that whatever happened must have been extraordinary.

Thus, the single killer argument is persuasive, particularly when you consider that the highly respected criminologist, Professor David Wilson, has calculated that there have been only 34 known serial killers in the UK since 1888: https://www.sundaypost.com/news/uk-n...edy-and-needy/

And, of course, that's before you take into account similarities on signature and MO.

Furthermore, outside of crime fiction, copycat killers are virtually unprecedented, so that argument doesn't seem to make sense either.

And yet...If Bury wasn't JtR he must surely have been a copycat, particularly when you take into account the graffiti "confession".

And if Tabram wasn't a JtR victim then it's at least possible , if not probable, that JtR was inspired by that murder: so that's copycat number two.

Stride and Mackenzie? Possibly copycats numbers three and four (Mackenzie more so than Stride, in my opinion.)

Coles copycat number 5?

And what of Austin? Okay, I know she was murdered in 1901 but there are startling similarities with the earlier murders. Thus, her abdomen was mutilated, although not extensively [neither was Mackenzie or Ellen Bury], although according to Dr Dale, "It seems a funny affair, it looks as if something has been passed through her back passage and ground around." This is somewhat reminiscent of the attack on Emma Smith, particularly as there was also a penetrating injury to the womb. She was also "kicked all over the body."

Even more startling the attack occurred in Dorset Street where, of course, Kelly was murdered (35, Dorset Street, to be precise, the same lodging house where Chapman had been ejected on the morning of her murder.)

So how do we explain all of these coincidences and apparent copycat crimes? Could it be down to gang activity? Could two serial offenders be working together? That, at least, isn't unprecedented: see, for example, Duffy and Mulcahy.

Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

Hi John

Furthermore, outside of crime fiction, copycat killers are virtually unprecedented, so that argument doesn't seem to make sense either.

yes!

[

QUOTE]And yet...If Bury wasn't JtR he must surely have been a copycat, particularly when you take into account the graffiti "confession".

No! he may have mutilated her abdomen for reasons unknown.
re the graffiti, if its true I lean more towards the local kids doing it as he was from London and they probably thought he was weird an or violent drunk.
Apparently Bury was rather obsessed with NOT being accused of being the ripper, so I doubt he would have confessed or implicated himself as the ripper in this way.

And if Tabram wasn't a JtR victim then it's at least possible , if not probable, that JtR was inspired by that murder: so that's copycat number two.

IMHO Tabram was probably the first ripper victim.at least one which he killed.

Stride and Mackenzie? Possibly copycats numbers three and four (Mackenzie more so than Stride, in my opinion.)

Coles copycat number 5?

well why stop at these? why aren't they all copy cats?stride isn't much of a copy cat though is she-only cut throat.

Mckenzie? probably ripper victim. would a copy cat know the subtlty of raising the skirt to expose the abdomen?

coles-to far out in time and probably sadler killed her. no abdominal injuries either. NOT a ripper victim.nor a copy cat.

And what of Austin? Okay, I know she was murdered in 1901 but there are startling similarities with the earlier murders. Thus, her abdomen was mutilated, although not extensively [neither was Mackenzie or Ellen Bury], although according to Dr Dale, "It seems a funny affair, it looks as if something has been passed through her back passage and ground around." This is somewhat reminiscent of the attack on Emma Smith, particularly as there was also a penetrating injury to the womb. She was also "kicked all over the body."

Even more startling the attack occurred in Dorset Street where, of course, Kelly was murdered (35, Dorset Street, to be precise, the same lodging house where Chapman had been ejected on the morning of her murder.)

waaaay to far out in time. I would have to chalk this one up to coincidence.

Maybe it's time to think outside the box

well theres out side the box and and then theres outside reality!

and it would be helpful to define what exactly do you mean by copy cat as Ive asked on here many a time-what do you mean?

someone trying to cover there crime and make it look like the ripper to throw off police ??

some weak minded individual influenced by the ripper directly or indirectly?

someone purposefully trying to duplicate a ripper murder because its cool?

someone with no tie at all to ripper murders but just a total coincidence it looks like a ripper murder?

what do you mean by copy cat???

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've only read DJ Leighton's book on Druitt, and enjoyed it. I don't know of another good book about Druitt, however.

There's Hainsworth's book which I keep meaning to find the time to read again.
Obviously Cullen and Farson from way back.

[Harry D]

depends on what you mean by copy cat murder.
Do you mean a weak minded individual influenced by the ripper murders who tried to duplicate a ripper murder?
or someone who killed her for their own reasons (jeolosy anger revenge etc) and tried to pin it on the ripper by making it look like one of his crimes?

Personally, I've never been comfortable with a copycat trying to "frame" the Ripper. I've seen the same argument used by people like Michael Richards to eliminate Eddowes as a Ripper victim. I don't believe that someone in that situation would risk remaining behind to inflict the mutilations, given the tight-squeeze the killer had to avoid the police beats. If the copycat is caught, he's going to the gallows as the Ripper. By their very nature, these murders were almost impossible to solve without catching the killer in the act. It's not like a domestic murder with an easily identifiable suspect. McKenzie was a woman of ill-repute killed in the street. There was no need for a cover up on the killer's part.

[Abby Normal]

There's Hainsworth's book which I keep meaning to find the time to read again.
Obviously Cullen and Farson from way back.

Hi HS
other than the MM-is there anything (other than gossip and rumor) which implicates druitt?

I believe he was gay correct? serial killers target the object of there sexual desires correct? in that age it would also explain his getting sacked, his depression and suicide no?

He didn't didn't live any where near whitechapel?

Out of all the "major" suspects hes probably the weakest one IMHO. well except for perhaps Ostrog. LOL!

[John G]

Hi John

yes!

[
No! he may have mutilated her abdomen for reasons unknown.
re the graffiti, if its true I lean more towards the local kids doing it as he was from London and they probably thought he was weird an or violent drunk.
Apparently Bury was rather obsessed with NOT being accused of being the ripper, so I doubt he would have confessed or implicated himself as the ripper in this way.


IMHO Tabram was probably the first ripper victim.at least one which he killed.



well why stop at these? why aren't they all copy cats?stride isn't much of a copy cat though is she-only cut throat.

Mckenzie? probably ripper victim. would a copy cat know the subtlty of raising the skirt to expose the abdomen?

coles-to far out in time and probably sadler killed her. no abdominal injuries either. NOT a ripper victim.nor a copy cat.



waaaay to far out in time. I would have to chalk this one up to coincidence.



well theres out side the box and and then theres outside reality!

and it would be helpful to define what exactly do you mean by copy cat as Ive asked on here many a time-what do you mean?

someone trying to cover there crime and make it look like the ripper to throw off police ??

some weak minded individual influenced by the ripper directly or indirectly?

someone purposefully trying to duplicate a ripper murder because its cool?

what do you mean by copy cat???

I don't think the graffiti would be down to kids: that's way to much of a coincidence, in my opinion, to be a realistic option. And I don't think Bury was the brightest.

Mackenzie, Austin, Smith, Stride, Coles and Tabram may all have been killed by a person(s)other than whoever may have been responsible for the other murders. In fact, I doubt anyone on here would say that any of those victims were definitely killed by JtR. However, that results in enormous coincidences and an unprecedented spate of unusual murders in such a small geographical area.

A copycat could be someone inspired by earlier murders; or someone attempting to put the blame on JtR.

However, I see no logical reason whatsoever to dismiss the theory of two killers working together, particularly as it isn't unprecedented. This doesn't mean that they didn't also act independently on occasion, as Duffy and Mulchay did on occasion.

Coles' murderer was disturbed by PC Thompson; therefore if your going to argue that Stride wasn't mutilated for this reason, even though there's no evidence her killer was disturbed, then the same logic applies even more to Coles.

Sadler was exonerated after witnesses came forward to demonstrate that he was drunk in several pubs around the time the murder took place. He's a totally hopeless suspect in my opinion.

[Abby Normal]

Personally, I've never been comfortable with a copycat trying to "frame" the Ripper. I've seen the same argument used by people like Michael Richards to eliminate Eddowes as a Ripper victim. I don't believe that someone in that situation would risk remaining behind to inflict the mutilations, given the tight-squeeze the killer had to avoid the police beats. If the copycat is caught, he's going to the gallows as the Ripper. By their very nature, these murders were almost impossible to solve without catching the killer in the act. It's not like a domestic murder with an easily identifiable suspect. McKenzie was a woman of ill-repute killed in the street. There was no need for a cover up on the killer's part.

agree. I don't think in the annals of crime there has ever been a proven copy cat killing of this type-trying to frame a known serial killer by making your own murder look like his. its Hollywood fiction.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think the graffiti would be down to kids: that's way to much of a coincidence, in my opinion, to be a realistic option. And I don't think Bury was the brightest.

Mackenzie, Austin, Smith, Stride, Coles and Tabram may all have been killed by a person(s)other than whoever may have been responsible for the other murders. In fact, I doubt anyone on here would say that any of those victims were definitely killed by JtR. However, that results in enormous coincidences and an unprecedented spate of unusual murders in such a small geographical area.

A copycat could be someone inspired by earlier murders; or someone attempting to put the blame on JtR.

However, I see no logical reason whatsoever to dismiss the theory of two killers working together, particularly as it isn't unprecedented. This doesn't mean that they didn't also act independently on occasion, as Duffy and Mulchay did on occasion.

Coles' murderer was disturbed by PC Thompson; therefore if your going to argue that Stride wasn't mutilated for this reason, even though there's no evidence her killer was disturbed, then the same logic applies even more to Coles.

Sadler was exonerated after witnesses came forward to demonstrate that he was drunk in several pubs around the time the murder took place. He's a totally hopeless suspect in my opinion.

thanks for clarifying.

Ive got Mackenzie, stride and Tabram down as the ripper victims. the others not. too much dissimilarities in MO and/or time.

and I don't believe in copy cat killers.

[Sam Flynn]

Hainsworth... Obviously Cullen and Farson from way back.

Good call on Cullen, which is a classic. I didn't think much of Farson, TBH, and I've not read Hainsworth. However, a quick skim of the latter using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature shows me that it could be a good 'un.

[Harry D]

I don't think the graffiti would be down to kids: that's way to much of a coincidence, in my opinion, to be a realistic option. And I don't think Bury was the brightest.

If I remember rightly, policemen were put on guard at the flat after the murder, so kids couldn't have done it.

Serial killers have been known to unravel and become architects of their own demise. The graffiti "confession" and his pathetic cover story at the police station could've been the actions of a serial killer who'd simply given up the ghost.

Ellen Bury's body was mutilated shortly after her death. That's the most telling thing for me. I could understand Bury panicking before deciding on his next move, but his first instinct was to brandish a knife and start mutilating the body. That's a rare paraphilia for a killer, and yet it's one he shared with another killer who lived in the East End in the autumn of 1888.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS
other than the MM-is there anything (other than gossip and rumor) which implicates druitt?

I believe he was gay correct? serial killers target the object of there sexual desires correct? in that age it would also explain his getting sacked, his depression and suicide no?

He didn't didn't live any where near whitechapel?

Out of all the "major" suspects hes probably the weakest one IMHO. well except for perhaps Ostrog. LOL!

Hi Abby,

There's no evidence that he was gay. Because he was sacked as a schoolteacher people have assumed the he was up to something with one of the students. I once suggested a possible reason for his sacking 'maybe it was discovered that he consorted with prostitutes?' No evidence of course though. He lived in The Minories which is easy walking distance. MacNaughten said that his family believed him to be the ripper, again no real proof but we cant always just assume that someone like MM was lying. He has a reason for stopping (although this would of course discount Mackenzie.) I can understand why someone might not consider him though. I definately don't say that he was the Ripper. Perhaps there's just an air of mystery around him?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good call on Cullen, which is a classic. I didn't think much of Farson, TBH, and I've not read Hainsworth. However, a quick skim of the latter using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature shows me that it could be a good 'un.

I recall that it had some good research and info so I intend to revisit it at some point.

[John G]

If I remember rightly, policemen were put on guard at the flat after the murder, so kids couldn't have done it.

Serial killers have been known to unravel and become architects of their own demise. The graffiti "confession" and his pathetic cover story at the police station could've been the actions of a serial killer who'd simply given up the ghost.

Ellen Bury's body was mutilated shortly after her death. That's the most telling thing for me. I could understand Bury panicking before deciding on his next move, but his first instinct was to brandish a knife and start mutilating the body. That's a rare paraphilia for a killer, and yet it's one he shared with another killer who lived in the East End in the autumn of 1888.

Yes, some very good points, Harry. I've just referred to Macpherson's book and he argues that it's hard to believe that anyone apart from Bury could have been responsible for the graffiti: No one apart from Bury entered the apartment from the time of the murder to the discovery of the body (a period of seven days); and once the murder was discovered there was always at least one policeman on duty at the scene of the crime.

It could, of course, have pre-dated the murder, but not only would this have been an enormous coincidence-considering Ellen's injuries-surely Bury would have cleaned it off.