"...but because you are going to hang me you will get nothing out of me..."

[Abby Normal]

I agree with you Boggles, I don't see more-likely candidates although there aren't really any good ones. Lack of evidence makes for poor candidates..

I expect the usual suspects of Chapman and Koz will be trotted as as superior. I don't agree...

I wish we had more corroboration of Bury's East End meanderings. We do know he was a sick psychopath which at least ticks one box. Of course Chapman was too but Koz ticks only the schizo box.

My favorite candidate of late is Jacob Levy. His lack of casebook respect only strengthens my suspicions...


Greg

Hi Greg
i agree. there are none who are very superior-as you say there arent any real good ones. They are all pretty weak, and IMHO only a handful including Bury are the best of a bad lot. I would include Blotchy, hutch, bury, chapman, james kelly and Koz in that order. They all were either tied to the case in some way and/or were suspects of police at the time.

In my mind though the key may be Mary kelly. Out of all the victims it seems that she may have known her killer more so than just a chance encounter like the others. According to the witnesses she was with 4 men that night: Barnett, Blotchy, Hutch and A-man.
I would venture then that one of these men was probably mary kelly's killer.

Barnett- had an alibi and was thoroughly checked by police and was cleared.
Hutch- places himself at the scene and has several red flags about him, but may have just been an attention seeker.
A-man -probably a fabrication of Hutch.
Blotchy-last credible "suspect" seen with MK. My money is on him as most likely Mary Kellys killer and thus the ripper.

But as for Jacob levy? He seems to fit some kind of profile but he has no real connection to the case. I am afraid that from Anderson and via Fido people have been on a 125 year wild goose chase looking for a crazy jew.
The suspect page is littered with them already.

[GregBaron]

It boggles the mind...

Droy, really? would you be kind enough to name one of them??

I agree with you Boggles, I don't see more-likely candidates although there aren't really any good ones. Lack of evidence makes for poor candidates..

I expect the usual suspects of Chapman and Koz will be trotted as as superior. I don't agree...

I wish we had more corroboration of Bury's East End meanderings. We do know he was a sick psychopath which at least ticks one box. Of course Chapman was too but Koz ticks only the schizo box.

My favorite candidate of late is Jacob Levy. His lack of casebook respect only strengthens my suspicions...


Greg

[Boggles]

Droy,

better and more likley candidates

really? would you be kind enough to name one of them??

[John Wheat]

I agree with Boggles, Bury is a strong suspect. Who shouldn't be lumped in with the ridiculous candidates whom I suspect a number have been concocted by authors to make a quick buck. Still if there happy trading on murders then there you go.

John

[DRoy]

Boggles,

Thank you for your reply.

I disagree that most of the info came from the trial. Maybe regarding some of Bury and his wife's murder but most of the things that are being discussed on threads like this have to do with newspaper reports which are not as reliable.

Bury was not considered a suspect because of the trial, it was the papers that suggested it. The news not the trial notes came up with the story and from there it was on.

Bury is the only suspect worth taking seriously? If all your time is spent in the Bury threads then I guess that makes sense but I do recommend expanding beyond him. You're missing out.

To reiterate, i'm not saying he's a bad choice but there are better and more likely candidates.

Cheers
DRoy

[Mayerling]

Now, that's an interesting thought.

I wonder how people's minds do work . . .

curious

Hi Curious,

I refer you to an earlier legal tragedy. In 1777 Rev. Dr. William Dodd, a popular clergyman nicknamed (due to his expensive tastes and dress) "the Macaroni Parson", was shown to have forged papers by his pupil, the son of Lord Chesterfield. Dodd thought Chesterfield would not press legal action, but was disappointed in that hope. Dodd was tried for forgery, found guilty, and condemned to death. As a result there was a massive letter writing and petition campaign to save him, that involved (among others) Dr. Samuel Johnson. Johnson was not a friend of Dodd's, but he was appalled that a clergyman might hang for forgery.

During the campaign Johnson talked about the case with his friend James Boswell, and they were discussing what Dodd's thoughts were at this time. Johnson made the classic comment that when a man is facing his imminent execution his mind becomes wonderfully concentrated for the first time.

Dodd was not pardoned, but was hanged.

Jeff

[Boggles]

Having squandered most of his wives inheritance I can confirm he would have for sure been able to pay for private lodgings and stabling for his horse and there would be many available in this area of..

''claustrophobic mixture of lodging houses, stables and narrow courts gave it a mean reputation''

and in my opinion more likely to have taken lodgings than slept in his cart, and would have had access to these lodgings without hindrance or much chance of being stopped and detected as it was a very dark place after lights out. It was an ideal bolt hole.

But then on the other hand we do know he slept on floors in kitchens from the trial notes (and if as i recall somewhere a stable) so certainly also a possibility he did sleep in his cart, on a hot August night. good way to cover all that blood up some sawdust.

Gear you refer to horse tack? or the change of clothing and knives?

But then you mention a mate. Well we do know he was waiting for correspondence from someone in London and was disappointed not to receive it. Ellen Bury mentioned he had some mates who were causing him to stay up all night. And we know someone must have written that fake letter of employment. So we cant rule that out either for sure.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Will

Meaning perhaps that on "Pissitup" nights George Yard, George Street or the Evil Quarter Mile are totally out of the question unless Bury can pay for (or has prepaid for) totally secure premises and is sober enough to sort out the pony, cart, load, gear etc...

Let's be honest - Both you and I'd be far happier with that convenient mate with an available and cheap backyard...

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

come to think of it what self respecting jack the ripper wouldn't want to be hanging out in that locale,

it'd have to be properly secure

I would certainly be keeping my hand on my wallet at all times

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Will

Wherever, it'd have to be properly secure - you've only got to read the Jack London account of what happened to an unattended or insecure horse and cart to know that!

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

and that's where the speculation starts!

Hi Dave,
George yard buildings/George street/ the evil quarter mile sounds to me like a good bet.

Numerous stables, plenty of lodgings for travelers and lights out at 2300hrs.

A few contemporary accounts i could dig up
"...a narrow turning out of the High-street, [that] leads into a number of courts and alleys in which some of the poorest of the poor, together with thieves and roughs and prostitutes, find protection and shelter in the miserable hovels bearing the name of houses..”

" for years been a regular rendezvous and hiding place for [army] deserters."

“…one of the most dangerous streets in the locality…”

- also if your a GSG man and plot the route from Eddows to the GSG hes heading directly for it.

[Cogidubnus]

Wouldn't he use the 3 Spanby Road stable when he was home? I'd expect this to be rented by the week or month.

But what would he use when making sales calls? or whenever he was out neglecting his business, drinking in the afternoons and into the nights? where did he leave his pony and cart then?

Could the pony just have been tied along the street somewhere?

How did such things work?

curious

Hi Velma

Of course when he was home it's most likely he used the stable near 3 Spanby Road...else why rent it?

Making business calls, I'd guess (and it's only a guess) he'd tie up as close as he could get to his customers...it'd make offloading the sawdust easier...some of the old photos on this site certainly suggest carts/horses tied up at the side of the street making deliveries...some of these premises (I'm guessing mainly pubs) might also have had yards accessible from the street...

Away from home, or out on serious drinking, I really don't know...and that's where the speculation starts!

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

Droy

Qualified documentary evidence?

Apologies, yes i do mean the trial notes.

most of the information we have seems to be at best third person information.

No most of the information is from the trial notes, thanks to the meticulous record keeping of the Scots. But there is of course information from secondary sources such as contemporary news reports that not be discounted out of hand either, some of them providing very interesting information.

Though like everyone else I want more, and i believe there is still more out there.

Mayerling - thanks for your very interesting reply. We should always keep an open mind of course but realistically Bury is the only suspect worth taking seriously. I find it surprising that he continues to be overlooked or lumped together with people whose connection with these murders is farcical at best, but more typically downright slanderous. But still then that's one of the charms of this interesting suspect.

[curious]

We do know however that Bury usually stabled his horse close to 3 Spanby Road, (whence he and Ellen moved in August 1888).

According to Beadle (P98) we get this from the statement of William Smith, his landlord, dated 14th February 1889.

All the best

Dave

Hi, Dave,
Wouldn't he use the 3 Spanby Road stable when he was home? I'd expect this to be rented by the week or month.

But what would he use when making sales calls? or whenever he was out neglecting his business, drinking in the afternoons and into the nights? where did he leave his pony and cart then?

Could the pony just have been tied along the street somewhere?

How did such things work?

curious

[curious]

Bury probably was not in the mood scant minutes before his own death to settle questions about his career with any hangman or detective.

Jeff

Now, that's an interesting thought.

I wonder how people's minds do work . . .

curious