"...but because you are going to hang me you will get nothing out of me..."

[Mayerling]

Hi Mayerling - thanks for your thoughts,

Just on this comment



These other suspects, did they also live within a few miles of Whitechapel at the time of the murders? and did the murders stop suddenly when they left? Were they also known to make use of prostitutes? Did they have the freedom to come and go and linger out all night on occasions? Were they also (broadly speaking) the same age and height as the witnesses statements? Were they known to be violent to women? Is their any evidence of them being violent to women in a pub in Whitechapel? Did they sleep with knives under their pillows? Had they been known to threaten women with knives? When they murdered their victims was their method to use a blitz attack and choking, followed by ritualistic mutilations on and around the genital area?

If they tick all these boxes then i would agree with you about their claims being as valid as Bury

Hi Boggle,

Actually none of that group fit the "Bury" fit for being a Ripper suspect. I only mentioned them in a subset for those who were executed for other murders and suggested for being "Jack". However three of them certainly fit something into the set of of points you bring up. Keep in mind, please, that I have never settled on any named suspect as THE RIPPER SUSPECT.

Mary Pearcey was living in London in 1888-90 (the year of her double murder and trial, conviction and execution). She lived in St. John's Wood section, and her chief victim (Phoebe Hogg) was the successful rival who married Frank Hogg. Phoebe and her baby were killed (the baby was smothered under her mother's body by Mary in her home. Phoebe was basically stabbed and hacked by a knife wielding Mary. The body of Phoebe (covering and smothering her baby) were transported in the parambulator to the local park and dumped there. The discovery of the corpses suggested Jack the Ripper was active, but not in the East End. Eventually though, police investigation led back to Mary Pearcey's home, which was covered in bloodstains. When asked why there were such stains, Pearcey smiled and said she had been killing mice. There have been serious questions as to her mental state since her death at the end of Mr. Berry's rope in 1890.

George Chapman (under his Polish name) live in the East End in 1888, and was briefly under suspicion at the time, until he moved to the U.S. in 1890. Later he was to be arrested (in 1902) and tried and executed in 1903 for the poisoning of three wives he had. Since his modus operandi was poison many have objected to his being the Ripper (who used knives). But Chapman had been a barber surgeon, and could have had access to such devices. Also there is the now notorious comment of Abberline to Inspector Godley, "You have finally caught "Jack the Ripper" at last!", a quote I find curiously like one nearly twenty years earlier by Abberline regarding the capture of the three Netherby Hall burglary-murderers, one of whom was wanted for possible involvement with the murder if Chief Inspector Simmons near Romford in 1884.

Finally we come to Frederick Bailey Deeming. Here you can make a choice.
You can say he was not in England in 1888 or he was. Throughout 1888 Fred Deeming was on the move ahead of the police in South Africa and elsewhere. However some people later said he was in the East End in that fall and winter of 1888, and even commented on the double murder of Eddowes and Stride. His own crimes were domestic (he wiped out his first wife and four children in a variety of ways near Liverpool (Rainhill) in 1891, and buried their bodies in the floor of the kitchen, and then murdered a second wife at Melbourne, then in the colony of Victoria (now in Australia) in 1892 - the latter was the crime he was charged with. He collected sharp weapons, including a really sharp axe. Also, if you feel that the Goulston Street graffito is Ripper connected and was hinting at Masonic terms (the word "Juwes" may be a Masonic term), Fredrick Deeming liked to use Masonic terms all over the place.

As for Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, I suppose he was still in Joliet Prison in Illinois in 1888 (which rules him out), and Dr. Harry Howard Holmes (a.k.a.
Dr. Herbert Mudgett), he might have gone to England, but there is not much to back such a claim.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Hello, Jeff,

Good to hear from you.

Like you, I had realized that the quote might have been altered, but had not really considered that there was no statement, but that Berry had created one.

I suppose both are possible.

What I most considered is that people put synonyms from their own vocabulary into "quotes."

I have seen this happen with young women to whom I have quoted 4 weeks as a deadline for their wedding story. They have been positive I've said a month. We gave up and made the deadline a month. Their minds simply translated 4 weeks into a month.

Another example is also directly from my own experience. When I interview people, I write down information as well as record it. But I make it a habit to listen to the recording to insert the quote into a story because quite frequently I will substitute a synonym in the middle of the quote as the young women so often did with the "month."

I has suspected Berry of doing that with "I suppose" instead of using "reckon" -- which is another word we should look for in Bury's writings.

That's the kind of change I would expect to see in a "quote" -- not a statement made of "whole cloth" or totally bogus, which is completely possible, too, of course.

However, in Berry's line of work. I would think that people facing the gallows might be very intense, very memorable. Plus, Berry likely reported back to his superiors, maybe to newspapers (?) and perhaps to British officers who had been sent to check him out. In that case, the conversation might be more deeply ingrained.

Think I'll go back and reread Beale's book. I did manage to find it last night.

curious

Hi Curious,

Thank you for the complement.

I find that memory is very tricky, as it competes with other fuctions of our brain. We tend to mold it to what we wish to believe. James Berry was a very interesting man - he tried to be a good, relatively humane executioner, but had several awful experiences in his career (his beheading hanging of Robert Goodale in 1884 was one of them). Eventually he got fed up and became an eloquent spokesperson against capital punishment (bravo for him, actually!). Still he was also a man with some degree of pride in his work. He had those fancy calling cards to hand out proclaiming him as public executioner. This in an age when it usually was not bragged about.

He probably heard some comment, and mentioned it. He more than likely polished up the wording in his own mind and presented it to the detectives. He also more than likely added thought to his 1911 memoir about the incident. I would imagine that he really did have some experience but it was not quite what he made it seem. Bury probably was not in the mood scant minutes before his own death to settle questions about his career with any hangman or detective.

Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

We do know however that Bury usually stabled his horse close to 3 Spanby Road, (whence he and Ellen moved in August 1888).

According to Beadle (P98) we get this from the statement of William Smith, his landlord, dated 14th February 1889.

All the best

Dave

[GregBaron]

Closing the gap...

Surely the essence of stables, per-se, is that the pony/horse is relieved of it's working gear and bit, and placed in a stall...you don't take a horse and cart into a stable and leave the cart and gear still attached...quite apart from which you couldn't get the cart into a stall, and you surely wouldn't leave Dobbin out loose...

More to the point, IS a stable such a good place to regroup? We know how Diemschitz's pony responded to a freshly slain body...I'd think a killer with bloody clothing, bloody knife and possibly trophies too, might well spook strange horses were he to enter into a confined space with them...

Frankly I'd buy into this more if Bury were renting say a back yard from a mate prepared to turn a blind eye to his nocturnal activities...

All the best

Dave

Thanks Dave, this is good stuff. If the horse is separated as you suggest, I wonder where the cart might be located. Perhaps it could be carted off(!) somewhere where the deviant might use it as a makeshift bolt hole? Perhaps not, I don't know. Maybe the carts were corralled in another area. We can also wonder if Bury just parked it somewhere without using a stable....just went off on foot and returned when he was ready...?

I've heard this idea of horses shying from blood and although I personally don't know it to be a fact it makes perfect sense to me. But again, if the cart is separated then the original idea stands....


Greg

[Cogidubnus]

Steptoe

Surely the essence of stables, per-se, is that the pony/horse is relieved of it's working gear and bit, and placed in a stall...you don't take a horse and cart into a stable and leave the cart and gear still attached...quite apart from which you couldn't get the cart into a stall, and you surely wouldn't leave Dobbin out loose...

More to the point, IS a stable such a good place to regroup? We know how Diemschitz's pony responded to a freshly slain body...I'd think a killer with bloody clothing, bloody knife and possibly trophies too, might well spook strange horses were he to enter into a confined space with them...

Frankly I'd buy into this more if Bury were renting say a back yard from a mate prepared to turn a blind eye to his nocturnal activities...

All the best

Dave

[GregBaron]

Hidden under the sawdust...

Hi, Greg,
Thanks for the cart photo. Bury was said to have a "pony" and cart if I recall correctly, so likely the cart was smaller than one a horse would pull, but Bury's cart had to be large enough to carry a load of sawdust -- how much sawdust would each sale require? (it's too early in the morning for me to remember if he sold sawdust to bars or where).

This particular cart does not appear to offer much space for stashing knives, bloody coats, etc. Didn't some have long thin boxes under the seat?

But for a person sleeping in it to be noticed, it would have to be seen directly from the front, don't you think? It appears to me to provide a fairly good hiding place.

Besides, for him and his knives and possible bloody clothing to have been discovered, he would first have to come to the attention of a policeman.

I wonder if a drunk sleeping it off in a cart was likely to?

curious

Hi curious et al,

Yeah, I just grabbed that cart as a possibility, here's another. It certainly could have been smaller with a box under the seat. The questions you and Abby bring up are good ones as a stable would have been a perfect place to regroup after a murder. We need to know more about the logistics of running the stable. I expect there was a charge of some sort and therefore a proprietor. Did the night watchman/proprietor leave at a certain time or was there someone always there? It would be harder for a murderer to return and do his thing when somebody was there checking up on him. Like I said, someone on casebook certainly knows something about such things. He or she may not be receiving our plea...

As for third hand sources and newspaper accounts, yes these should be taken with caution. Transcripts of the trial though should contain valid information.

Bury definitely ticks a lot of the boxes, I just want to know more about his horse and pony show...


Greg

[DRoy]

Curious,

Thanks, I totally forgot about Macpherson's book which I read quite a few years ago now.

At least you got my point about things getting lost in translation which was my main point. I do now recall that both writers have relied heavily on newspaper accounts which supports my questioning of the legitimacy of quotes and stories within them (newspapers).

Bury's candidacy is not a silly one by any means. What may hurt it growing stronger though is the lack of contemporary evidence to enhance it in any way.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

DROY,
The information in my note above is from qualified documentary evidence from the trial notes from witnesses who have sworn on oath, the orginal documents of which can be found on various places on this message board.

In addition to Beagle a couple of other people have provided background information on Bury, a lot of it is from contemporary newspapers at the time of his trial and links to those can also be found on various places in here.

Boggles,

Qualified documentary evidence? I'm not really sure what that means. Do you mean trial documents? Signed witness statements?

My point was Boggles that most of the information we have seems to be at best third person information. Precise wording or even quotes get messed up the more they're passed down.

DRoy

[curious]

Is Beadle the only one that has provided most of the history of Bury? I'm only really aware of his books. Where did he get most of the info and who else can verify it?

I'm not suggesting that Beadle is making it up. Just curious where most of the wording Beadle uses comes from. How much has been lost in translation as it gets past down from person to person to newspaper etc?

Unless Bury can be quoted (I know he is but i'm talking about the case against him) then at best we are reading things second hand and perhaps even interpreted and written third hand.

I'm a little skeptical about accepting things literal every time just because its in print.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi, DRoy,
there is also a book by Euan Macpherson, which I have not read.

Despite having an interest in Bury as JtR, I did not find Beadle's book particularly convincing.

I agree with you about accepting things just because they are in print. I realize how quotes get changed and words turned around when passed from one person to the next.

That being said, I still find Bury very interesting as a possibility.

curious

[curious]

These are good questions curious and I suspect someone knows more than we do. I sort of remember Bury's cart being rather simple with a open basket type container behind the driver. He sold something strange like sawdust or something. I'm going from memory here. I'm guessing it's something like the attached.

A man could probably curl up in it but as far as changing clothes and hiding knives I don't know. It may seem senseless minutia but as someone said, it could be on such minutia that the case turns....


Greg

Hi, Greg,
Thanks for the cart photo. Bury was said to have a "pony" and cart if I recall correctly, so likely the cart was smaller than one a horse would pull, but Bury's cart had to be large enough to carry a load of sawdust -- how much sawdust would each sale require? (it's too early in the morning for me to remember if he sold sawdust to bars or where).

This particular cart does not appear to offer much space for stashing knives, bloody coats, etc. Didn't some have long thin boxes under the seat?

But for a person sleeping in it to be noticed, it would have to be seen directly from the front, don't you think? It appears to me to provide a fairly good hiding place.

Besides, for him and his knives and possible bloody clothing to have been discovered, he would first have to come to the attention of a policeman.

I wonder if a drunk sleeping it off in a cart was likely to?

curious

[Boggles]

DROY,
The information in my note above is from qualified documentary evidence from the trial notes from witnesses who have sworn on oath, the orginal documents of which can be found on various places on this message board.

In addition to Beagle a couple of other people have provided background information on Bury, a lot of it is from contemporary newspapers at the time of his trial and links to those can also be found on various places in here.

[DRoy]

Is Beadle the only one that has provided most of the history of Bury? I'm only really aware of his books. Where did he get most of the info and who else can verify it?

I'm not suggesting that Beadle is making it up. Just curious where most of the wording Beadle uses comes from. How much has been lost in translation as it gets past down from person to person to newspaper etc?

Unless Bury can be quoted (I know he is but i'm talking about the case against him) then at best we are reading things second hand and perhaps even interpreted and written third hand.

I'm a little skeptical about accepting things literal every time just because its in print.

Cheers
DRoy

[Boggles]

Hi Mayerling - thanks for your thoughts,

Just on this comment

to me he is one in a specific subset: murderers suspected of being the Ripper (Bury, Pearcey, Deeming, Cream, Holmes, Chapman, etc.). His claims are as valid of comment as the others. That's about it.

These other suspects, did they also live within a few miles of Whitechapel at the time of the murders? and did the murders stop suddenly when they left? Were they also known to make use of prostitutes? Did they have the freedom to come and go and linger out all night on occasions? Were they also (broadly speaking) the same age and height as the witnesses statements? Were they known to be violent to women? Is their any evidence of them being violent to women in a pub in Whitechapel? Did they sleep with knives under their pillows? Had they been known to threaten women with knives? When they murdered their victims was their method to use a blitz attack and choking, followed by ritualistic mutilations on and around the genital area?

If they tick all these boxes then i would agree with you about their claims being as valid as Bury

[Abby Normal]

These are good questions curious and I suspect someone knows more than we do. I sort of remember Bury's cart being rather simple with a open basket type container behind the driver. He sold something strange like sawdust or something. I'm going from memory here. I'm guessing it's something like the attached.

A man could probably curl up in it but as far as changing clothes and hiding knives I don't know. It may seem senseless minutia but as someone said, it could be on such minutia that the case turns....


Greg

I agree these are great questions, especially the stables. If one could have access to the stables at any time, then i would think that using a cart and horse and stable could help facilitate these crimes as the killer would have a viable bolt hole after the murders (at the stable) and could sleep in the cart and or mosey on home when he felt it safe.Also, I would think they would have water available to wash up a bit. Plus, a man with his cart/horse and livelihood (sawdust salesman) all with him would have a ready made excuse for the police if he was stopped.

Does anyone else know how these stables operated? were they open all night?

[GregBaron]

Pony up boys...

Hi, Greg,
I agree with you that most likely the stables were scanned -- if they were open, but were they? how did they operate? Were they locked up at night? Did people with animals stabled there have access 24/7? I don't know.

Were the animals unhooked from the vehicles? were both the animals and the vehicles inside?

I suspect the police did scan the stables, and it was just so much a part of the job that it was not mentioned separately. But if a policeman scanned and saw no movement would he actually go inside to check each vehicle? I'm interested in whether a man sleeping off a drunk in a buggy or cart would be visible from a distance.

I don't actually know what sort of vehicle Bury owned or what it looked like, was it big enough to curl up in?

So many questions . . . .

curious

These are good questions curious and I suspect someone knows more than we do. I sort of remember Bury's cart being rather simple with a open basket type container behind the driver. He sold something strange like sawdust or something. I'm going from memory here. I'm guessing it's something like the attached.

A man could probably curl up in it but as far as changing clothes and hiding knives I don't know. It may seem senseless minutia but as someone said, it could be on such minutia that the case turns....


Greg