"...but because you are going to hang me you will get nothing out of me..."

[Cogidubnus]

If Bury wasn't Jack why would he go to the trouble of moving to Dundee to murder Ellen?

Sorry John but you might equally ask: "If Bury was Jack, why would he go to the trouble of moving to Dundee to murder Ellen? Why not just cut her throat in London and get her more easily attributed as one of the series credited to the mystery killer?"

Just saying...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi John Wheat

Bury supposedly wrote in different styles.

Source please?

As well as the forged letter of employment it is likely he wrote the messages on the doors in his flat e.g. Jack the Ripper is in this cellar.

The forged offer of employment was presumably designed to convince his wife and/or her sister of the reasons for moving North. On the basis that either (despite his wife's alleged illiteracy) might recognise his own hand, it is equally valid to theorise that Bury persuaded or paid someone else to write this letter.

With regard to the messages on the cellar doors, it is now established that these doors were not actually within the flat. They were at the foot of a flight of stairs at the rear of the building outside the flat...accessed from a relatively public area...ANYBODY could have written them, either before or after the discovery of the body.

All the best

Dave

[John Wheat]

If Bury wasn't Jack why would he go to the trouble of moving to Dundee to murder Ellen?

[johns]

Abby.... >>> http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7113&page=2

[John Wheat]

To Abby

The cellar door graffiti was reported in the Dundee Advertiser. The Dundee Advertiser also suggested that the chalked messages were older than the murder of Ellen Bury

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

To Abbey

Bury supposedly wrote in different styles. As well as the forged letter of employment it is likely he wrote the messages on the doors in his flat e.g. Jack the Ripper is in this cellar.

Cheers John

Thanks John
Can you remind me of what the source is for the cellar door graffiti story? Did that Come from newspapers, police reports-where? From my memory it seems that it was rather apocryphal, rumor etc.
Thanks!

[John Wheat]

To Abbey

Bury supposedly wrote in different styles. As well as the forged letter of employment it is likely he wrote the messages on the doors in his flat e.g. Jack the Ripper is in this cellar.

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

To Curious

Both Beadle's and Mcphersons books are excellent reads and shed light on a strong suspect often overlooked for no apparent reason.

Cheers John

Hell John(s), all
One thing this thread has gotten me thinking on is Bury's supposed ability and or use of writing in a different hand. He forged an offer of employment correct? Does anyone know if this document was written by Bury in a different hand than his other known writings?

If he has a history of writing in different styles than eventhough the dear boss letters do not appear to match Bury's other handwriting, it would open the possibility that he did write them in a differnent hand. We had already pointed out the connection between Burys use (and perhaps fixation upon) of the word clever in his supposed statement to the hangman and also the Dear Boss opening. A Psychopathic serial killers common trait seems to be an overwhelming sense of superiority-that they are so much smarter than evryone else-almost an obsession with it. Bury strikes me as an individual who definitely had this charactaristic.

[The Good Michael]

Bury's situation reminds me of James Kelly's. There isn't much known about Kelly's whereabouts after his escape from Broadmoor, but near the time of the murders he was quite possibly in London. Bury also is an unknown in this time period, as far as when exactly he was in London. They both murdered their wives in a violent fashion, but Tully's book on Kelly elevates him higher in my eyes than Bury's position as suspect. This means, of course, that a suspect writer pushes agenda. Still, Bury is a possibility. Why not?

Cheers,

Mike

[John Wheat]

To Curious

Both Beadle's and Mcphersons books are excellent reads and shed light on a strong suspect often overlooked for no apparent reason.

Cheers John

[curious]

Thanks, John. Will look forward to what you discover.

Hi, John, all,
I am finding what I consider to be gems in William Beadle, particularly his footnotes.

for instance: Description of Bury from the Dundee Courier 12 Feb. 1889:

"In his own clothes he was a fairly decent looking man but in prison garb . . . he strikes one as being weak minded. Bury is of fresh complexion, his hair is dark brown, his moustache and whiskers being a shade lighter. He has a somewhat timid and excitable appearance. Viewed from the side he presents features somewhat of the Jewish or Semite type. He has dark but not heavy eyebrows and his eyes are keen and sharp. His nose is long and prominent, his cheeks thin, and his beard sparse and straggling . . . he appeared a diminutive and insignificant creature."

His first known job, at about 16 years old, was as a factor's clerk for a Mr. Bissell in Horseley Fields, East Wolverhampton, and was there in 1881, according to the census which listed his occupation as "factor's clerk."

He was lodging with a man named William Hicklin in Paternoster Row. (Beadle said that it appears that Paternoster Row did not exist prior to 1881.)

Now this is particularly interesting because of its connection with Catherine Eddowes -- the one victim who has been portrayed as saying she thought she knew who the Ripper was. . . . .

According to a footnote from Beadle, a workmate, probably Richard Swatman, was reported by the Midland Evening News on 12 Feb. 1889 to have said that Bury lodged with a Mrs. Hicklin in Pipers Row, which is very close to Bilston Street where Catherine Eddowes lived with an aunt.

My personal take on this is that whether or not Eddowes ever met Wm. H. Bury, gossip and news get passed along in letters or visits and Bury was creating a reputation for himself.

I'll keep reading.

curious

[curious]

I've looked at the history of Bury's family with an eye to finding descendants but it all came to naught.

My next "big idea" is to contact the Blue Coat School in Stourbridge and gain permission to scour their archives. I spoke with the old headmaster there years ago and he was going to look on my behalf as I was living in Scotland at the time, but I never heard back from him and there's been a change of head since then.

Hopefully I'll get some time this summer.

Regards
John

Thanks, John. Will look forward to what you discover.

[johns]

I've looked at the history of Bury's family with an eye to finding descendants but it all came to naught.

My next "big idea" is to contact the Blue Coat School in Stourbridge and gain permission to scour their archives. I spoke with the old headmaster there years ago and he was going to look on my behalf as I was living in Scotland at the time, but I never heard back from him and there's been a change of head since then.

Hopefully I'll get some time this summer.

Regards
John

[curious]

I remember like it was yesterday the first time I came across Bury. It was in The Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper by Maxim Jakubowski and Nathan Braund. I had previously read Sugden's excellent History of Jack the Ripper, the Diary of Jack the Ripper and 1 or 2 others... none of which even mentioned Bury in passing. A state of affairs that I find odd.

For me, Bury stood out as the best suspect and he still does. Obviously there is the possibility that A N Other was Jack. But at this moment in time and for the past 10 years or more since I first read that book, W H Bury, for me, was Jack the Ripper. Period.
So after deciding all those years ago that Bury was the Ripper I have engaged in what little research I have done into him on a very ad-hoc basis. If I had more time and money I would probably do more. One thing I'm not going to do is research other suspects. Other people can do that if they wish. I research Bury. End of.


Regards
John S Lockett

Hello, John,
I felt exactly the same way the first time I read about Bury. I explore others, but haven't met anyone else that seems as good a fit.

Since you do research, I wonder if you have ever found Bury and/or Katherine Eddowes/or family in Wolverhampton?

I would love for there to be some connection found between Bury and Eddowes and or her family.

thanks, John.

curious

[johns]

I agree about the financial gain observation.

I also think that some people argue against points they actually agree with, deliberately mis-interpret matters and generally add to confusion by adding more just for the sake of it. I've witnessed people do this in real life so it's no surprise to me that it occurs on the web, which is part of real life.


John