A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The short version of the coroner's summary is that she was killed by a stranger, and my theories are compatible. My suggestion is that BSman was not a stranger and that he did not kill her. My opinion is like that of Wickerman, that she was still with Parcelman. Jon thinks he may have been in the shadows and I agree, or he may have been using the WC which would provide a reason for their moving to the yard.

I can't quite imagine a non-club member using the WC, as if it were a public toliet. Or even knowing it was there. What other reason might there be for this man to be "in the shadows"? It sounds a little too theatrical, on its own. Sort of like suggesting that the person who really needed to use the WC, was a young Jewish immigrant who had been living on Berner street, who knew something of the club and the people there, and also knew he could get away with ducking up the yard for a pee, before greeting his wife after a big day out on his own.

From there I can envisage two scenarios. BSman moves off and Parcelman proceeds to kill Stride, or BSman moves off in response to an approach by Pipeman (JtR) who offers to escort her to the safety of the club side door and kills her just as Parcelman returns from the WC, followed by the chase described by Wess. JMO.

In the first scenario, Stride fails to speak up or act in a way that would suggest she is at least puzzled by Parcelman's failure to act. She seems a bit dim-witted. The second scenario is a sort of damsel in distress story. In either scenario you have a man who is, for all intents, queuing up to commit violence on Liz. He just waits for the other guy to go first. Do these scenarios have a slightly sadistic feel to them?

Since this is a Leon Goldstein thread I'll repeat my previous wildcard. Suppose Leon, in his capacity of VP of the club had employed Stride as a cleaner and a relationship developed from there. He is Parcelman (& JtR??) and they move to the yard to wait for the start of her cleaning job and he kills her there and walks up Berner St being heard by Mortimer and seen by Mrs Artisan. Totally unsupported conjecture I know, but the later is what was proposed by Walter Dew.

Cheers, George

Proposed by Dew? He made no distinction between Mortimer and Mrs. Artisan. That is your own idea. In Dew's book the man with the black bag is seen walking north, at virtually the same time as Mortimer hears the approaching cart ...

Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.

It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.

The walking north cannot possibly have occurred before the walking south. At least, not according to Dew's account.

[GBinOz]

The Coroner: The cut in the throat might have been effected in such a manner that bloodstains on the hands and clothes of the operator were avoided, while the domestic history of the deed suggested the strong probability that her destroyer was a stranger to her. There was no one among her associates to whom any suspicion had attached. They had not heard that she had had a quarrel with any one - unless they magnified the fact that she had recently left the man with whom she generally cohabited; but this diversion was of so frequent an occurrence that neither a breach of the peace ensued, nor, so far as they knew, even hard words. There was therefore in the evidence no clue to the murderer and no suggested motive for the murder. The deceased was not in possession of any valuables. She was only known to have had a few pence in her pocket at the beginning of the evening. Those who knew her best were unaware of any one likely to injure her. She never accused any one of having threatened her. She never expressed any fear of any one, and, although she had outbursts of drunkenness, she was generally a quiet woman. The ordinary motives of murder - revenge, jealousy, theft, and passion - appeared, therefore, to be absent from this case; while it was clear from the accounts of all who saw her that night, as well as from the post-mortem examination, that she was not otherwise than sober at the time of her death.

Both of the standing in the gateway theories - soliciting and waiting for someone - are essentially contradicted in Baxter's summing-up. We can't, with the current evidence, know what happened, but should our theories at least be compatible with the findings of the inquest?

The short version of the coroner's summary is that she was killed by a stranger, and my theories are compatible. My suggestion is that BSman was not a stranger and that he did not kill her. My opinion is like that of Wickerman, that she was still with Parcelman. Jon thinks he may have been in the shadows and I agree, or he may have been using the WC which would provide a reason for their moving to the yard. From there I can envisage two scenarios. BSman moves off and Parcelman proceeds to kill Stride, or BSman moves off in response to an approach by Pipeman (JtR) who offers to escort her to the safety of the club side door and kills her just as Parcelman returns from the WC, followed by the chase described by Wess. JMO.

Since this is a Leon Goldstein thread I'll repeat my previous wildcard. Suppose Leon, in his capacity of VP of the club had employed Stride as a cleaner and a relationship developed from there. He is Parcelman (& JtR??) and they move to the yard to wait for the start of her cleaning job and he kills her there and walks up Berner St being heard by Mortimer and seen by Mrs Artisan. Totally unsupported conjecture I know, but the later is what was proposed by Walter Dew.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't think she was soliciting. I think BSman was someone with whom she was acquainted. He may have thought she was soliciting, but I think Stride sorted him out after she arose from the ground. I also don't think BSMan killed her, but that is just an opinion. We can't, with the current evidence, know what happened.

Cheers, George

The Coroner: The cut in the throat might have been effected in such a manner that bloodstains on the hands and clothes of the operator were avoided, while the domestic history of the deed suggested the strong probability that her destroyer was a stranger to her. There was no one among her associates to whom any suspicion had attached. They had not heard that she had had a quarrel with any one - unless they magnified the fact that she had recently left the man with whom she generally cohabited; but this diversion was of so frequent an occurrence that neither a breach of the peace ensued, nor, so far as they knew, even hard words. There was therefore in the evidence no clue to the murderer and no suggested motive for the murder. The deceased was not in possession of any valuables. She was only known to have had a few pence in her pocket at the beginning of the evening. Those who knew her best were unaware of any one likely to injure her. She never accused any one of having threatened her. She never expressed any fear of any one, and, although she had outbursts of drunkenness, she was generally a quiet woman. The ordinary motives of murder - revenge, jealousy, theft, and passion - appeared, therefore, to be absent from this case; while it was clear from the accounts of all who saw her that night, as well as from the post-mortem examination, that she was not otherwise than sober at the time of her death.

Both of the standing in the gateway theories - soliciting and waiting for someone - are essentially contradicted in Baxter's summing-up. We can't, with the current evidence, know what happened, but should our theories at least be compatible with the findings of the inquest?

[GBinOz]

Why would a non-club man care less about a woman soliciting, in that location?

If he pulls her out of the gateway, what difference would it make to her ability to solicit, outside the club or anywhere else?

Do you suppose this man was in the habit, at least that night, of pulling soliciting women away from their preferred locations? Are there reports of a man behaving like this toward other unfortunates, that night? Surely he passed others, though?

The notion of Moralising Man, is one I'd be more inclined to agree with if there was evidence that violent, tut-tutting men like your BS man, actually existed. As it is, I can only imagine someone from the club being so upset at Stride's location there, that they would get nasty with her. That is still a stretch. Her reason for being there, would help too. I realize that is something most people here would take as a given, but it makes little sense to me.

I don't think she was soliciting. I think BSman was someone with whom she was acquainted. He may have thought she was soliciting, but I think Stride sorted him out after she arose from the ground. I also don't think BSMan killed her, but that is just an opinion. We can't, with the current evidence, know what happened.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I don't think that BSman did rough Stride up. I think he tried to pull her out of the gateway and she pulled away and fell down. It could have been at this point that Parcelman made himself known from the shadows and BSman moved off.

My point is that no-one knows what happened in the Smith to Diemshitz time gap, so we are all speculating about this period, and there are a number of scenarios that could have been acted out but there is no proof for any of them.

Cheers, George

Why would a non-club man care less about a woman soliciting, in that location?

If he pulls her out of the gateway, what difference would it make to her ability to solicit, outside the club or anywhere else?

Do you suppose this man was in the habit, at least that night, of pulling soliciting women away from their preferred locations? Are there reports of a man behaving like this toward other unfortunates, that night? Surely he passed others, though?

The notion of Moralising Man, is one I'd be more inclined to agree with if there was evidence that violent, tut-tutting men like your BS man, actually existed. As it is, I can only imagine someone from the club being so upset at Stride's location there, that they would get nasty with her. That is still a stretch. Her reason for being there, would help too. I realize that is something most people here would take as a given, but it makes little sense to me.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

If Parcelman (Goldstein or otherwise) is still with Stride when the BS man roughs her up, then why doesn't Stride say something to him, before he kills her? Like ...

Why didn't you do anything to help me?

Does Liz have a voice and agency, in this scenario?

As for the footsteps, I think the measured plod was either the slow plod of Smith, or the similarly slow plod of the half-tipsy man.

Hi Andrew,

I don't think that BSman did rough Stride up. I think he tried to pull her out of the gateway and she pulled away and fell down. It could have been at this point that Parcelman made himself known from the shadows and BSman moved off.

My point is that no-one knows what happened in the Smith to Diemshitz time gap, so we are all speculating about this period, and there are a number of scenarios that could have been acted out but there is no proof for any of them.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Just to join in the brain-storming, suppose Goldstein was Parcelman and he is standing in the shadows of the yard during the Schwartz incident. After BSman, Pipeman and Schwartz have departed he kills Stride and it is his footsteps that are heard by Mortimer, and it is he that is seen headed north up Berner St by Mrs Artisan. If this occurred about 12:45 there is time for Goldstein to get to the Spectacle, establish his presence there and return in time to be spotted by Mortimer headed south down Berner St at about 1am. All speculation of course, but for the time between sightings by Smith and Diemshitz, that is all that is available to us.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

If Parcelman (Goldstein or otherwise) is still with Stride when the BS man roughs her up, then why doesn't Stride say something to him, before he kills her? Like ...

Why didn't you do anything to help me?

Does Liz have a voice and agency, in this scenario?

As for the footsteps, I think the measured plod was either the slow plod of Smith, or the similarly slow plod of the half-tipsy man.

[GBinOz]

This is a portion of Donald Swanson's October 19 report.

"From enquiries made it was found that at:-

12.35 a.m. 30th P.C. 452H Smith saw a man and woman the latter with a red rose talking in Berner Street, this P.C. on seeing the body identified it as being that of the woman whom he had seen & he thus describes the man as age about 28. ht. 5ft. 7in: comp. dark, small dark moustache, dress black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, white collar & tie.

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic – Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road “Lipski” & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far. [Here there is a marginal note. – “The use of ‘Lipski’ increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew”.] Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man who threw the woman down:- age about 30 ht. 5 ft. 5in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands. second man age 35 ht. 5ft. 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before. [Here there is a marginal note. – “Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself in case any questions might be asked."]

Note the timeline.

We have one report quoting a woman - presumably Fanny Mortimer but aka 'Mrs. Artisan' - who said:

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Leaving aside the man's direction, this would seem to concur with the time given for Goldstein in Swanson's report, and so that time would appear to be fairly accurate. From this comes a couple of important questions.

Firstly, is the timing suggested by this report, about right?

Secondly, given that Goldstein does not seem to have reported seeing or hearing activity in the yard, then when is it supposed that the murder actually occurred? Was it between "about 1am" and "exactly 1am", or was it prior to Goldstein's passing? Fanny said:

A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates.

Fanny heard no screams from her door, so that would seem to place the murder significantly prior to Goldstein's passing. This would seem to point to Schwartz's first man, as being the culprit. Having said that, Fanny had a different opinion:

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

If Fanny's opinion is correct, then why didn't Goldstein witness anything going on in the yard, or the approach of either Stride or the murderer? Alternatively, if Schwartz' first man did the killing, then both the timings of other witnesses, and the apparent skill of the 'half-tipsy' man, have to be considered.

Hi Andrew,

Just to join in the brain-storming, suppose Goldstein was Parcelman and he is standing in the shadows of the yard during the Schwartz incident. After BSman, Pipeman and Schwartz have departed he kills Stride and it is his footsteps that are heard by Mortimer, and it is he that is seen headed north up Berner St by Mrs Artisan. If this occurred about 12:45 there is time for Goldstein to get to the Spectacle, establish his presence there and return in time to be spotted by Mortimer headed south down Berner St at about 1am. All speculation of course, but for the time between sightings by Smith and Diemshitz, that is all that is available to us.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This is a portion of Donald Swanson's October 19 report.

"From enquiries made it was found that at:-

12.35 a.m. 30th P.C. 452H Smith saw a man and woman the latter with a red rose talking in Berner Street, this P.C. on seeing the body identified it as being that of the woman whom he had seen & he thus describes the man as age about 28. ht. 5ft. 7in: comp. dark, small dark moustache, dress black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, white collar & tie.

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic – Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road “Lipski” & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far. [Here there is a marginal note. – “The use of ‘Lipski’ increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew”.] Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man who threw the woman down:- age about 30 ht. 5 ft. 5in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands. second man age 35 ht. 5ft. 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before. [Here there is a marginal note. – “Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself in case any questions might be asked."]

Note the timeline.

We have one report quoting a woman - presumably Fanny Mortimer but aka 'Mrs. Artisan' - who said:

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Leaving aside the man's direction, this would seem to concur with the time given for Goldstein in Swanson's report, and so that time would appear to be fairly accurate. From this comes a couple of important questions.

Firstly, is the timing suggested by this report, about right?

Secondly, given that Goldstein does not seem to have reported seeing or hearing activity in the yard, then when is it supposed that the murder actually occurred? Was it between "about 1am" and "exactly 1am", or was it prior to Goldstein's passing? Fanny said:

A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates.

Fanny heard no screams from her door, so that would seem to place the murder significantly prior to Goldstein's passing. This would seem to point to Schwartz's first man, as being the culprit. Having said that, Fanny had a different opinion:

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

If Fanny's opinion is correct, then why didn't Goldstein witness anything going on in the yard, or the approach of either Stride or the murderer? Alternatively, if Schwartz' first man did the killing, then both the timings of other witnesses, and the apparent skill of the 'half-tipsy' man, have to be considered.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

AK Man is a popular suspect. I thought so myself for a while, particularly due to the resemblance of the AK drawing with the photo of Deeming. But to me, Hutchinson's account doesn't fit with the heavy rain that occurred on that night.
We seem to have strayed off topic - back to Leon.
Cheers, George

A look at Booth's map is also crucial in accepting AK man. There is a fair degree of red on that map which he describes as middle class or 'well to do'. Many often refuse to countenance AK man based on the erroneous assumption that Whitechapel merely housed those at the lowest end of the social scale. But yes off topic so back to Leon.

[GBinOz]

I become more and more convinced that AK man was the killer.

Hi Sunny,

AK Man is a popular suspect. I thought so myself for a while, particularly due to the resemblance of the AK drawing with the photo of Deeming. But to me, Hutchinson's account doesn't fit with the heavy rain that occurred on that night.
We seem to have strayed off topic - back to Leon.
Cheers, George

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

Hutchinson and Astrakhan man are interesting. Have you read the articles by Benedict Holme and Christer Holmgrem in the Casebook Examiner here: http://www.rippercast.com/mp3/EXAMINER%20Issue%205.pdf

Christer presents facts that suggest that Hutchinson my have got his date wrong.

Cheers, George

Hi George, yes I flirted with that explanation for quite a while- however I eventually came to the conclusion that Sarah Lewis vindicated Hutchinson's account. It is very interesting that of all the accounts given that night none prove Hutchinson's account to be false. There are a number of sightings of her and she was heard in her room for a time also. No sighting negates Hutchinsons. I become more and more convinced that AK man was the killer.

[GBinOz]

I believe George Hutchinson and see AK man as our most likely suspect as JTR.

Hi Sunny,

Hutchinson and Astrakhan man are interesting. Have you read the articles by Benedict Holme and Christer Holmgrem in the Casebook Examiner here: http://www.rippercast.com/mp3/EXAMINER%20Issue%205.pdf

Christer presents facts that suggest that Hutchinson my have got his date wrong.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So you are suggesting Goldstein may have been in Berner Street and killed Stride. He then leaves heard by Mrs. Mortimer to go to a shop so he could establish an alibi. He stays for about a minute before leaving again to re-enter Berner Street and travel home. I think it may be more simple that Goldstein was at the coffee shop and was walking home, seen by Fanny Mortimer and then identified himself the next day to Police after becoming aware he had been mentioned in the papers. In actual fact Goldstein was probably an upstanding citizen- he came forward so he could be eliminated and prevent the Police chasing a dead end.

Wess dragged Goldstein's arse to the police station, late Tuesday evening. Report

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Swanson's report is based on the fact Mrs. Mortimer saw a man and Goldstein identified himself as that person?

Correct. Keep going ...