A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[NotBlamedForNothing]

P.S. for Andrew - if Goldstein's north and south sighting were at the same time they must have been the same event. "A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.". Which corner might that have been?

Cheers, George

Goldstein admitted to the south passing, and presumably gave a time of about 1am. Yet the south sighting is not tied to a particular time, even a rough one. It is just somewhere within the 12:30-1am half hour. The north sighting, in contrast, is vaguely specific ...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Wess reinforced the 'about 1am' time, in the MA report. He seems to have claimed that Goldstein was seen by Mortimer "walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder". Which is misleading. Mortimer's public comments do not support Wess's contention that the to-the-south trip occurred when he and Goldstein claimed it did. So really, Wess's comments regarding Goldstein were disingenuous. He has been allowed to get way with them, however.

Regarding the corner, that would be the corner that one would expect a man to reach, having been seen walking to the north, just prior to the discovery.

[FISHY1118]

Not a lot of time? Yet the Schwartz incident supposedly has four people arrive on the street, and disappear from it so fast that no one sees or hears anything of their presence. So I would of thought the remaining time would be seen as huge in comparison, and it only requires the appearance of one more man.

There seems to me to be some friction between the simultaneous belief in the fleeting incident, and the unlikely occurrence of another man 'coming along', in the remaining minutes before the discovery.

At the precise moment of the attact at 12.45 only Schwartz , BSman and Pipeman stride were involved, it quit possible was over in a matter of moments , unless you have another eyewitness account of someone else who saw what Schwartz saw at the same time ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So from 12.56am back to 12.46 am ,what time did Schwartz testify he witnessed the assault? 12.45. Not a lot of time for someone other than bs man to kill stride

Not a lot of time? Yet the Schwartz incident supposedly has four people arrive on the street, and disappear from it so fast that no one sees or hears anything of their presence. So I would of thought the remaining time would be seen as huge in comparison, and it only requires the appearance of one more man.

There seems to me to be some friction between the simultaneous belief in the fleeting incident, and the unlikely occurrence of another man 'coming along', in the remaining minutes before the discovery.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well it was easy, im suprized you hadnt worked it out, Pipeman and Parcelman are the same person .

I can just see him running along, with a pipe or something in one hand, and the parcel in the other. Sounds totally realistic.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

You quoted this in a previous post:
Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am
[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.

Can you not see that Blackwell did not give a TOD, he gave a ten minute range (or margin) for the TOD?

Cheers, George

So from 12.56am back to 12.46 am ,what time did Schwartz testify he witnessed the assault? 12.45. Not a lot of time for someone other than bs man to kill stride

[GBinOz]

Im not getting into A debate whether Baxters time had a ten minute margin or not, he gave he time of death which fits perfectly with time stride was most probably killed
Regards Fishy

Hi Fishy,

You quoted this in a previous post:
Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am
[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.

Can you not see that Blackwell did not give a TOD, he gave a ten minute range (or margin) for the TOD?

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Stop the press

Well it was easy, im suprized you hadnt worked it out, Pipeman and Parcelman are the same person .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Jolly Good , i can eliminate parcelman then as Jack the ripper .

Stop the press

[FISHY1118]

He was the man seen by Smith, Fanny, and Eagle, handing out packets of crisps on Berner street.

Liz Stride offered some of her packet to the BS man, but he hated chicken flavor, so in disgust he turned her around and threw her down on the footway. The crisps went everywhere, and were later discovered by the vigilance committee's forensics squad.

All True Facts.

Jolly Good , i can eliminate parcelman then as Jack the ripper .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Now, Parcel man who was he and who claimed him there in the vacinity?

He was the man seen by Smith, Fanny, and Eagle, handing out packets of crisps on Berner street.

Liz Stride offered some of her packet to the BS man, but he hated chicken flavor, so in disgust he turned her around and threw her down on the footway. The crisps went everywhere, and were later discovered by the vigilance committee's forensics squad.

All True Facts.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

In the midst of a massive manhunt for a serial killer do you really think that Stride would have reacted to being assaulted by screaming three times, but not very loudly. If BSman took her by the arm to pull her out of the yard and she swivelled around to pull away from him and he let go, she would have fallen to the ground in a manner that would have appeared to Schwartz to her being thrown to the ground. The entire Schwartz event would have played out in under two minutes and in that time there were three or four men in Stride's immediate vicinity, BSman, Pipeman, Parcelman and Schwartz, so no-one had to "come along", they were already there. Blackwell's time had a ten minute margin so it cannot exclude any of the possibilities, and it was stipulated that she bled out over a number of minutes so time of attack was not TOD. Stride either knew BSMan or did not consider him a threat - otherwise she would have screamed her head off. I think Parcelman showed Stride too much public attention and affection to fit the JtR profile. My opinion is that Pipeman is the most likely candidate for the killer, and maybe JtR, as an opportunist, and that he was interrupted by Parcelman. Since there is no evidence for anything in the Smith to Diemshitz time gap, it all comes down to "Speculation and Conjecture".

P.S. for Andrew - if Goldstein's north and south sighting were at the same time they must have been the same event. "A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.". Which corner might that have been?

Cheers, George

Hi George. Anwser to your first question is yes , we have a witness that confirms she did .

One was there, Parcelman [which ill get back to ]

Pipeman followed Schwartz down the street why would he double back to kill stride? , BSman ,well we know what he was doing.

Im not getting into A debate whether Baxters time had a ten minute margin or not, he gave he time of death which fits perfectly with time stride was most probably killed


Now, Parcel man who was he and who claimed him there in the vacinity?

Regards Fishy

[GBinOz]

The title of this thread is "a closer look at Leon Goldstein", and is an examination of him as a person of interest. Of all the C5 victims, Stride is the one that is questioned as even being a ripper victim but she is the one that seems to garner the most interest, comment and suspects.

Suggested as a suspect for Stride's murder at various times have been: BSMan, Parcelman, Pipeman, Kidney, Eagle, Lave, Letchford, Schwartz, Spooner, Bury, Kosminski, Thompson, Druitt, Sutton, the Three Jacks (Diemshitz, Kozebrodski and Friedman) and of course Goldstein. Did I miss anyone's favourite?

So where does Leon rate in this list of proposed contenders?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Or this , At 12.45 am Schwartz saw Strides killer try to drag her into the street, but turned her around and threw her down on the footway

Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am
[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.
Bang on time for Strides assault and subsequent Murder , Dont think for a minute someone else came along and Murdered Stride after that event ..........Ludicrous.

Guess what ? The man who threw Stride to the ground and called out Lipski to Schwartz was more likey than any other person to be her killer. Anything else is Speculation and Conjecture

Hi Fishy,

In the midst of a massive manhunt for a serial killer do you really think that Stride would have reacted to being assaulted by screaming three times, but not very loudly. If BSman took her by the arm to pull her out of the yard and she swivelled around to pull away from him and he let go, she would have fallen to the ground in a manner that would have appeared to Schwartz to her being thrown to the ground. The entire Schwartz event would have played out in under two minutes and in that time there were three or four men in Stride's immediate vicinity, BSman, Pipeman, Parcelman and Schwartz, so no-one had to "come along", they were already there. Blackwell's time had a ten minute margin so it cannot exclude any of the possibilities, and it was stipulated that she bled out over a number of minutes so time of attack was not TOD. Stride either knew BSMan or did not consider him a threat - otherwise she would have screamed her head off. I think Parcelman showed Stride too much public attention and affection to fit the JtR profile. My opinion is that Pipeman is the most likely candidate for the killer, and maybe JtR, as an opportunist, and that he was interrupted by Parcelman. Since there is no evidence for anything in the Smith to Diemshitz time gap, it all comes down to "Speculation and Conjecture".

P.S. for Andrew - if Goldstein's north and south sighting were at the same time they must have been the same event. "A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.". Which corner might that have been?

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

I can't quite imagine a non-club member using the WC, as if it were a public toliet. Or even knowing it was there. What other reason might there be for this man to be "in the shadows"? It sounds a little too theatrical, on its own. Sort of like suggesting that the person who really needed to use the WC, was a young Jewish immigrant who had been living on Berner street, who knew something of the club and the people there, and also knew he could get away with ducking up the yard for a pee, before greeting his wife after a big day out on his own.



In the first scenario, Stride fails to speak up or act in a way that would suggest she is at least puzzled by Parcelman's failure to act. She seems a bit dim-witted. The second scenario is a sort of damsel in distress story. In either scenario you have a man who is, for all intents, queuing up to commit violence on Liz. He just waits for the other guy to go first. Do these scenarios have a slightly sadistic feel to them?



Proposed by Dew? He made no distinction between Mortimer and Mrs. Artisan. That is your own idea. In Dew's book the man with the black bag is seen walking north, at virtually the same time as Mortimer hears the approaching cart ...

Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.

It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.

The walking north cannot possibly have occurred before the walking south. At least, not according to Dew's account.

Or this , At 12.45 am Schwartz saw Strides killer try to drag her into the street, but turned her around and threw her down on the footway

Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am



[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.






Bang on time for Strides assault and subsequent Murder , Dont think for a minute someone else came along and Murdered Stride after that event ..........Ludicrous.


Guess what ? The man who threw Stride to the ground and called out Lipski to Schwartz was more likey than any other person to be her killer. Anything else is Speculation and Conjecture .


Goldstein .?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The short version of the coroner's summary is that she was killed by a stranger, and my theories are compatible. My suggestion is that BSman was not a stranger and that he did not kill her. My opinion is like that of Wickerman, that she was still with Parcelman. Jon thinks he may have been in the shadows and I agree, or he may have been using the WC which would provide a reason for their moving to the yard.

I can't quite imagine a non-club member using the WC, as if it were a public toliet. Or even knowing it was there. What other reason might there be for this man to be "in the shadows"? It sounds a little too theatrical, on its own. Sort of like suggesting that the person who really needed to use the WC, was a young Jewish immigrant who had been living on Berner street, who knew something of the club and the people there, and also knew he could get away with ducking up the yard for a pee, before greeting his wife after a big day out on his own.

From there I can envisage two scenarios. BSman moves off and Parcelman proceeds to kill Stride, or BSman moves off in response to an approach by Pipeman (JtR) who offers to escort her to the safety of the club side door and kills her just as Parcelman returns from the WC, followed by the chase described by Wess. JMO.

In the first scenario, Stride fails to speak up or act in a way that would suggest she is at least puzzled by Parcelman's failure to act. She seems a bit dim-witted. The second scenario is a sort of damsel in distress story. In either scenario you have a man who is, for all intents, queuing up to commit violence on Liz. He just waits for the other guy to go first. Do these scenarios have a slightly sadistic feel to them?

Since this is a Leon Goldstein thread I'll repeat my previous wildcard. Suppose Leon, in his capacity of VP of the club had employed Stride as a cleaner and a relationship developed from there. He is Parcelman (& JtR??) and they move to the yard to wait for the start of her cleaning job and he kills her there and walks up Berner St being heard by Mortimer and seen by Mrs Artisan. Totally unsupported conjecture I know, but the later is what was proposed by Walter Dew.

Cheers, George

Proposed by Dew? He made no distinction between Mortimer and Mrs. Artisan. That is your own idea. In Dew's book the man with the black bag is seen walking north, at virtually the same time as Mortimer hears the approaching cart ...

Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.

It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.

The walking north cannot possibly have occurred before the walking south. At least, not according to Dew's account.