A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Again no. He didn’t see people in the yard or he would have said ‘I saw people in the yard.” You can’t possibly believe that when being asked about the scene of a murder that he wouldn’t have mentioned people in the yard purely because they were acting ‘normally.’ Perhaps when he was near the gate he saw someone go to the outside loo then go back inside?

Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that if Lave had seen or suspected he'd seen unknown persons in the yard, he would told the press about it?

The fact that he didn’t see Stride means that Stride arrived at the gate after he went back inside.

So I guess she must have left the vicinity of the club after Smith passed, only to return 10 or 15 minutes later. So was she walking around nearby streets?

No mystery.

Seems like you've just created another.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Speculatively, Joseph Lave = J. Goldstein

There is some speculation on Lave, in this thread.

Daily News, Oct 1:

Joseph Love, a man just arrived in England from the United States, and who is living temporarily at the club until he can find lodgings, says:-I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

In that time period, he probably should have seen Stride and Parcelman. Maybe he did, and just didn't consider their behavior to be unusual. Yet he also says he should have seen anybody moving about. Does that mean he saw nobody? This is Lave quoted by the Evening News:

I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions.

It seems he did see people, it's just that they weren't behaving in a suspicious manner. But wait, was Lave referring to the street or yard at that point?

... while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions.

Apparently Lave did see people in the yard. Who were those people?

Again no. He didn’t see people in the yard or he would have said ‘I saw people in the yard.” You can’t possibly believe that when being asked about the scene of a murder that he wouldn’t have mentioned people in the yard purely because they were acting ‘normally.’ Perhaps when he was near the gate he saw someone go to the outside loo then go back inside?

The fact that he didn’t see Stride means that Stride arrived at the gate after he went back inside.

No mystery.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:

W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

Why did Goldstein accompany Wess to Leman street station? Was it because Goldstein did not speak English?

From the thread Wess' personal effects - presumably Vice Chairman L. Goldstein was Leon.
I wonder if the VC spoke at the farewell for Johny from Poplar, on December 21, 1889?

[See #51]

Note that there was also a J. Goldstein on the committee.

I have been trying to track down Joseph Lave, witness at the Stride murder. "A (Russian) man recently arrived from America"...
I checked the census records for Joseph Lave all the way to 1901.. and cant find anyone to fit the name. Lave is NOT a Russian name. That is for certain.
I really would like to know if a newspaper somewhere holds a description of this man.
I don't believe it was Tumbelty at all...but it's the coincidence..it just doesn't feel right.

Speculatively, Joseph Lave = J. Goldstein

There is some speculation on Lave, in this thread.

Daily News, Oct 1:

Joseph Love, a man just arrived in England from the United States, and who is living temporarily at the club until he can find lodgings, says:-I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

In that time period, he probably should have seen Stride and Parcelman. Maybe he did, and just didn't consider their behavior to be unusual. Yet he also says he should have seen anybody moving about. Does that mean he saw nobody? This is Lave quoted by the Evening News:

I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions.

It seems he did see people, it's just that they weren't behaving in a suspicious manner. But wait, was Lave referring to the street or yard at that point?

... while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions.

Apparently Lave did see people in the yard. Who were those people?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's interesting to compare Walter Dew's description of the man with the black bag, with Fanny Mortimer's own description. Dew:

Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes.

This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer. After the main meeting at the clubhouse had broken up some thirty or forty members who formed the choir, remained behind to sing. Mrs. Mortimer, as she had done on many previous occasions, came out to her gate the better to hear them. For ten minutes she remained there, seeing and hearing nothing which made her at all suspicious.

Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.

It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.

The shying of the steward's pony led him to investigate a huddled mass against the wall. It was the body of a woman.

Evening News:

Reporter: Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?
Mortimer: No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me.

Nowhere do we have a record of Fanny stating that the man looked about 30 (she only said 'young man'), and that he was dressed in black. So what was Dew's source for this information? The most obvious possibilities would seem to be that he:

• read Mortimer's police statement, which contained this information
• confused the man with the black bag, with Smith's parcel man
• made it up

This is Smith's description, from the Police Gazette:

A MAN, age 28, height 5 ft. 8 in., complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance. Carried a parcel wrapped up in newspaper.

The age and dress color closely matches Dew's description, and the respectable appearance matches Fanny's description. There is of course, one big difference - Fanny's man had a black bag, whereas Smith's man had a parcel wrapped up in newspaper. However, I wonder what we would have found if we could have unwrapped the parcel of it's newspaper cover. What was underneath?

No prizes for guessing what I'm implying, but if Liz had gone into the yard with parcel man, and the man had left the yard as black bag man, what happened to the newspaper? Well I guess he could have put into his black bag, otherwise he must have left it in the yard somewhere. Presumably the former, because the newspaper apparently was not found in the yard. Or was it? Daily News, Oct 1:

Her bonnet, which had fallen from her head when she was found in the yard, was of black crape, and inside, apparently with the object of making the article fit closer to the head, was folded a copy of the Star newspaper.

Now that would be a cunning trick. Was this another one...?

In her right hand were tightly clasped some grapes, and in her left she held a number of sweetmeats.

So was Leon Goldstein the murderer? He was the man with the black bag. At least, he was according to Woolf Wess.

[GBinOz]

Following is a quote of Fanny Mortimer that appeared in several Oct 1 papers. You have probably read this many times, and the most relevant section is highlighted.

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

The man with the black shiny bag turned out to be Leon Goldstein, a member of the Berner St club.

Notice Goldstein's direction of travel. He walked from Commercial Road, past the club, and then around the corner by the board school (which is on the opposite side to the club and the Mortimer residence). This would have Goldstein walking in the general direction of his residence - 22 Christian Street.

Also note the preposition Fanny used to indicate the direction of the man, who walked very fast down the street. Goldstein was walking to the South.

The following is the final portion of INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR. - Fanny Mortimer speaking to the Evening News, Oct 1.

A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!

"I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

The writer finishes with this:

That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?

This time the man is seen walking up Berner St, and thus to the North. If you suppose that 'up' and 'down' could have been used interchangeably, or at least not with total consistency, then consider what else Fanny had to say about where the man appeared to have been coming from...

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Now dear reader, let me ask you a simple question. If the man might ha' been coming from the club, in what direction might ha' he been walking in - North toward Commercial Rd, or South toward Fairclough St?

Hey Andrew,

I think you left out a bit and added a bit to the report of the interview with the neighbour by the Evening News 1 Oct:

"INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

"Was the street quiet at the time?

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!"

The journalist doesn't name the neighbour as Mortimer, and doesn't indicate where she lived, just where 3 people were standing chatting. He does say that she was the wife of a " well-to-do artisan". Mortimer's husband, William, was a carman. Also, there are no times mentioned.

Could it be that this was a different witness, not Mortimer at all? Could it be that she saw Goldstein headed up Berner St towards Commercial Road and the Spectacle Coffee Shop to establish an alibi, returning down Berner St later, with his head down, looking up at the club to check what may have been discovered, and the continuing home?

The same edition of the Evening News also contained the interview with Fanny Mortimer. Did the Evening News have two reportes at the same location? Even if they did, wouldn't they have talked with each other about their interviews?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Goldstein might not have spoken English or he may have spoken English but poorly but Wess may simply have gone with him for moral support. As Goldstein would have first told Wess that he’d passed the club he might have been tempted to just not get involved but Wess might have persuaded him that he should go and tell the police.

[GBinOz]

Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:

W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

Why did Goldstein accompany Wess to Leman street station? Was it because Goldstein did not speak English?

That's a good question Andrew. I tend to discount JtR suspects that don't speak English as he would have had difficulting speaking to victims who only speak English. According to Kidney, Stride spoke Yiddish.

I find it a little suspicious that Wess thought it necessary for Goldstein to report to the police an action as insignificant as walking down the street. This information, including the fact that he had been at a Spectacle St coffee house earlier, is completely irrelevant. The important part is that he may have come back to the club after and then been exiting just as Diemshitz arrives to discover the body.
There are some interesting reports regarding black shiny bags towards the bottom of the page titled SKETCH PORTRAITS OF THE SUPPOSED MURDERER.
here: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../dt881006.html

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:

W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

Why did Goldstein accompany Wess to Leman street station? Was it because Goldstein did not speak English?

From the thread Wess' personal effects - presumably Vice Chairman L. Goldstein was Leon.
I wonder if the VC spoke at the farewell for Johny from Poplar, on December 21, 1889?




Note that there was also a J. Goldstein on the committee.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If we had no reports at all that Goldstein had been identified and spoken to the police, we'd have another prime suspect, or another Schwartz like character. What we have, is an account from Fanny saying that Goldstein might have come from the club, and an account saying that the police were satisfied as to his movements that night. They're equally valid sources.

By presuming that we'd have another prime suspect, or another Schwartz like character if there were no police reports re Goldstein, you are in effect conceding that Fanny did indeed see the man with the black bag walking in a direction that is not compatible with him walking down the street and around the board school corner. It was no hallucination after all.
So why does the police report nullify any suspicions we might have, if that were the case?
Are we really dealing with equally valid sources? The police at Leman street got there information from Goldstein and Wess - hardly neutral sources. How much did they know about Fanny Mortimer and her comments? There is a clue in Swanson's report:

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before. [Here there is a marginal note. - "Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself in case any questions might be asked".]

The individual asking the question wants to know who the corroborating witness was. How could Swanson have left the name of corroborating witness out of his report, concerning an event serious enough for the Home Office to be asking questions? Is it because Swanson didn't even know the name Fanny Mortimer, let alone have awareness of her Evening News interview? So if he didn't know, who did?

Then of course there is question as to why Wess felt the (apparently sudden) need to take Goldstein to the station at all. Were the police looking for the man with the black bag? If yes, then why when he presents himself at the station, are they simply buying his story? Did anyone see the contents of the bag, on the night, for example? Even if they went to the coffee house to check up on his story, Mortimer's comments in the EN interview tell us that that was only half of the full story.

It seems very odd to me that Walter Dew considered both parts of the story, but no else at the time did. Which goes back to the question of how much the duty officer at Leman street station that night, was aware of. So once again, I think Goldstein could have slipped through the cracks.

If Fanny has Goldstein coming from Commercial Road, and also thinks she saw him again, possibly leaving the club, she's not made it clear to anyone.

One of the purposes of this thread, is to deal with the ambiguities in all of her recorded comments.

Any previous sighting of him leaving the club must have been well before the murder though? Or was his Commercial Road to Board School trip the earlier one?

There are two ways to answer these questions. We could debate the meaning of 'previously', in context, or we could just listen to Fanny ...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I wouldn't worry too much old chap. The idea that Fanny said "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club", because she saw a man whose direction of travel hinted that he might have been coming from the Socialist club, was never going to be taken seriously here. I knew that before I started the thread.

Hi Andrew,

You've made a valid enough point, Fanny definitely said what she said as far as we can tell. That can't be discredited on a whim, and it's worth keeping in mind that her alternative interview in the evening news is used when debating Schwartz and how long she was on her doorstep, so I don't see how this is too different.

If we had no reports at all that Goldstein had been identified and spoken to the police, we'd have another prime suspect, or another Schwartz like character. What we have, is an account from Fanny saying that Goldstein might have come from the club, and an account saying that the police were satisfied as to his movements that night. They're equally valid sources.

If Fanny has Goldstein coming from Commercial Road, and also thinks she saw him again, possibly leaving the club, she's not made it clear to anyone. Any previous sighting of him leaving the club must have been well before the murder though? Or was his Commercial Road to Board School trip the earlier one?

It's not a lot to go on though, and unfortunately without any better surviving sources and her non appearance at inquest, it's something to muse over but we can't make anything more from it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Leman street were satisfied with Leon's story as to his whereabouts that night, presumably this involved checking out his Spectacle Alley alibi, so while Fanny's interview certainly raises a question as to what she meant by 'previously', it's not much to go on. Her words are outweighed by the fact that the police checked out Leon.

Of course, it could be argued that Leon and Wess concocted a story and duped the police, but that's murky territory and works from the presumption that Fanny's press interview is acceptable at face value while reports of the police being satisfied as to Goldstein's actions are not.

I wouldn't worry too much old chap. The idea that Fanny said "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club", because she saw a man whose direction of travel hinted that he might have been coming from the Socialist club, was never going to be taken seriously here. I knew that before I started the thread.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Leman street were satisfied with Leon's story as to his whereabouts that night, presumably this involved checking out his Spectacle Alley alibi, so while Fanny's interview certainly raises a question as to what she meant by 'previously', it's not much to go on. Her words are outweighed by the fact that the police checked out Leon.

Of course, it could be argued that Leon and Wess concocted a story and duped the police, but that's murky territory and works from the presumption that Fanny's press interview is acceptable at face value while reports of the police being satisfied as to Goldstein's actions are not.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Unless she saw him twice. Then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, her Evening News interview just looks like gibberish.
Our job as investigators is to make sense of the data, not sweep unwanted data under the carpet.
Fanny Mortimer is a corroborated witness. Are we going to take her seriously?
More to the point, late on the Tuesday evening, Wess decided to take her very seriously indeed. Why

But equally our job isn’t to assume that every discrepancy has a meaning other than a simple error. A double-sighting explains the wording of course but it’s not the only explanation. We can’t get away from the fact that the police would have been extremely interested, so say the very least, in our mystery man carrying a black bag and hurrying past the club near to the time of the murder. And if there was the suggestion that Mortimer had already seen him pass earlier then alarms would have been going off. Some mention would have been made of this double sighting but there is none. So the only conclusion that we can draw is that there was more likely to have been no second sighting. The ‘up or down’ wording is just that, wording. This may even have been down to a reporters error.

And so the ‘mystery’ is how she could have said that Goldstein might have been coming from the club. Maybe she didn’t, maybe she told the reporter that he might have ‘come from the club?’ That he looked Jewish and might have been a club member?

[drstrange169]

>> What is your point? <<

My point, is that you seem to be wasting everybody's time.

After all it was you who wrote,

"I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club."
Post #126,A Whip and a Prod thread

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There’s obviously an error of communication somewhere in all of this.

As already suggested, that 'error' probably occurred at Leman street.
When Wess dragged Goldstein's arse to the station, he gave them the original, Commercial Road to board school corner sighting.
He also seems to have said that that occurred at about the time of the murder. So incredibly, the understanding of the approximate timing of the event, does not come from the corroborated witness herself, but rather from the interpreter who had to persuade Goldstein to go to the police to clear his name! How's that for a neutral opinion?

If she said that he passed her house coming from Commercial Road then she couldn’t have said that he might have come from the club. It’s impossible.

Unless she saw him twice. Then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, her Evening News interview just looks like gibberish.
Our job as investigators is to make sense of the data, not sweep unwanted data under the carpet.
Fanny Mortimer is a corroborated witness. Are we going to take her seriously?
More to the point, late on the Tuesday evening, Wess decided to take her very seriously indeed. Why?

The fact that she didn’t mention seeing him twice nor did the police and it would certainly have been important enough to have mentioned shows that she very obviously didn’t see him twice.

You're making a crucial error. What do you mean by 'him'?
Do you mean the unrecognised man with a shiny black bag, or do you mean Leon Goldstein, member of the club?
Fanny may well have told the police about the former, but at that point he had not been identified.
When Goldstein and Wess went to the police, he was explained to be the man who was seen walking down from Commercial Road, as opposed to the man seen walking in the opposite direction, in the vicinity of the club. The duty inspector may well have only been aware of the first description, and as that did not amount to suspicious behaviour, he accepted the story. Goldstein and Wess leave happy and relieved.
From that point on, people like Swanson knew the black bag man's name, and believed he had only made one trip along Berner street, leading up to the murder.
Can you now see how Goldstein was able to slip through the cracks?