A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

Goldstein said his black bag contained tobacco tins. He could have spent 3-4 minutes at the Spectacle collecting said tins and still had time for the return trip to and from Berner St. Goldstein could have been an upstanding citizen - many serial killers are perceived as such, but the police marginal note indicates that they were not sure that this was the case, implying he may have been trying to prevent further questions being asked.

To be clear, I am not advocating Goldstein as a suspect, just saying he cannot be dismissed as a "nonsense" suggestion. John Wheat's definition of a "pointless suspect" to my mind is someone who cannot even be established as being in the country at the time of the murders. Clearly Goldstein does not fall into this category, and can be established as being in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder. Think of your favoured suspect and apply this test to him.

Cheers, George

He could but it would be very unlikely. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. He was at a coffee shop collecting tobacco tins and walks home down Berner Street. Mortimer sees him. That is pretty much that. Alibi can be easily checked. Goldstein is much like Charles Cross to me and it takes mental gymnastics to try and explain how they are plausible as suspects. Personally I don't have any suspects but probably out of fashion nowadays but I believe George Hutchinson and see AK man as our most likely suspect as JTR.

[GBinOz]

So you are suggesting Goldstein may have been in Berner Street and killed Stride. He then leaves heard by Mrs. Mortimer to go to a shop so he could establish an alibi. He stays for about a minute before leaving again to re-enter Berner Street and travel home. I think it may be more simple that Goldstein was at the coffee shop and was walking home, seen by Fanny Mortimer and then identified himself the next day to Police after becoming aware he had been mentioned in the papers. In actual fact Goldstein was probably an upstanding citizen- he came forward so he could be eliminated and prevent the Police chasing a dead end.

Hi Sunny,

Goldstein said his black bag contained tobacco tins. He could have spent 3-4 minutes at the Spectacle collecting said tins and still had time for the return trip to and from Berner St. Goldstein could have been an upstanding citizen - many serial killers are perceived as such, but the police marginal note indicates that they were not sure that this was the case, implying he may have been trying to prevent further questions being asked.

To be clear, I am not advocating Goldstein as a suspect, just saying he cannot be dismissed as a "nonsense" suggestion. John Wheat's definition of a "pointless suspect" to my mind is someone who cannot even be established as being in the country at the time of the murders. Clearly Goldstein does not fall into this category, and can be established as being in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder. Think of your favoured suspect and apply this test to him.

Cheers, George

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

Are you aware that Walter Dew was a detective in H-Division and was part of the team investigating the Jack the Ripper murders, and that most of the files we have today are but a remnant of the original files which have mostly been destroyed or lost?

Suppose that you are correct and the footsteps that were heard were in fact those of the murderer, and, suppose for the sake of argument, the murderer was Goldstein. The time gap between the hearing of those footsteps and Goldstein being seen walking down Berner St is about 15 minutes. This is enough time for Goldstein to walk to the Spectacle, establish a presence in the shop, particularly if he were known there, and return to Berner St. There was a note in the margin of the Leman St police report that implied that someone suspected that Goldstein was trying to establish an alibi. The police investigation could only conclude that Goldstein was at the Spectacle, not where he was before, although there was a press report placing him him in Berner St headed north which was apparently ignored. They knew from his statement that he was in Berner St shortly after. Suspicions do not constitute proof to mount any case against him. As with most persons of interest, this scenario is pure speculation, but unlike most persons of interest, he can be placed in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder and it is that circumstance that makes it far from nonsense to even suggest him.

Cheers, George

So you are suggesting Goldstein may have been in Berner Street and killed Stride. He then leaves heard by Mrs. Mortimer to go to a shop so he could establish an alibi. He stays for about a minute before leaving again to re-enter Berner Street and travel home. I think it may be more simple that Goldstein was at the coffee shop and was walking home, seen by Fanny Mortimer and then identified himself the next day to Police after becoming aware he had been mentioned in the papers. In actual fact Goldstein was probably an upstanding citizen- he came forward so he could be eliminated and prevent the Police chasing a dead end.

[Sunny Delight]

'Blank' was eliminated at the time by the Police. It's a nonsense to even suggest him.



Why is it only in regards to Goldstein, that you say this? Why not every other suspect, and especially those who cannot be placed at a single crime scene?

It is in regards everyone. I dont think names should be bandied about, particularly names the Police at the time eliminated as simply a passer by.

[Sunny Delight]

According to Swanson's report, Goldstein was seen at about 1am. Can you show how Goldstein corroborates Mrs Mortimer, for this time?

If nothing else makes sense in regards to the timing of the footsteps, which were supposedly heard just before 12:45, can you give us any idea as to what Morris Eagle must have seen, when returning to the club at about 12:40?

Swanson's report is based on the fact Mrs. Mortimer saw a man and Goldstein identified himself as that person?

[Sunny Delight]

It's that simple, if your assumptions are correct. How do you know what sources of information, Dew had available to him?

Considering the errors in his memoir(which was based more on catching Crippen) I think it is fair to say Dew did not have access to the files we have today.

[GBinOz]

For me the interesting thing about Goldstein is he co-orborates Mrs. Mortimer. She saw him and was at her door when she said she was. By all intents and purposes it seems likely the measured steps she heard pass her door, which she took for a Policeman, was actually the murderer. Nothing else would make sense in regards timing.

Hi Sunny,

Are you aware that Walter Dew was a detective in H-Division and was part of the team investigating the Jack the Ripper murders, and that most of the files we have today are but a remnant of the original files which have mostly been destroyed or lost?

Suppose that you are correct and the footsteps that were heard were in fact those of the murderer, and, suppose for the sake of argument, the murderer was Goldstein. The time gap between the hearing of those footsteps and Goldstein being seen walking down Berner St is about 15 minutes. This is enough time for Goldstein to walk to the Spectacle, establish a presence in the shop, particularly if he were known there, and return to Berner St. There was a note in the margin of the Leman St police report that implied that someone suspected that Goldstein was trying to establish an alibi. The police investigation could only conclude that Goldstein was at the Spectacle, not where he was before, although there was a press report placing him him in Berner St headed north which was apparently ignored. They knew from his statement that he was in Berner St shortly after. Suspicions do not constitute proof to mount any case against him. As with most persons of interest, this scenario is pure speculation, but unlike most persons of interest, he can be placed in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder and it is that circumstance that makes it far from nonsense to even suggest him.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My real name is Pat, John. Yes it is to be borne in mind by us all that these were a series of very brutal murders and I wouldn't like my name bandied about even in 130 years time over a murder today. For me the interesting thing about Goldstein is he co-orborates Mrs. Mortimer. She saw him and was at her door when she said she was. By all intents and purposes it seems likely the measured steps she heard pass her door, which she took for a Policeman, was actually the murderer. Nothing else would make sense in regards timing.

According to Swanson's report, Goldstein was seen at about 1am. Can you show how Goldstein corroborates Mrs Mortimer, for this time?

If nothing else makes sense in regards to the timing of the footsteps, which were supposedly heard just before 12:45, can you give us any idea as to what Morris Eagle must have seen, when returning to the club at about 12:40?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Goldstein was eliminated at the time by the Police. His direction of travel was not a concern to them. His alibi we should assume was checked at the shop where he had been. He may have been well known. It's a nonsense to even suggest him.

'Blank' was eliminated at the time by the Police. It's a nonsense to even suggest him.

This was an actual person and sometimes we forget that even after the passage of time throwing accusations around is not right.

Why is it only in regards to Goldstein, that you say this? Why not every other suspect, and especially those who cannot be placed at a single crime scene?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It is widely accepted that Goldstein came forward to identify himself as the man seen at 1am or thereabouts by Mrs Mortimer. The Police then eliminated him from their enquiries. Dew was writing 50 years after the event. Most likely from what he had compiled the man described by Mortimer seemed a certain fit. He didn't have access to the Police files we have now. It's that simple.

It's that simple, if your assumptions are correct. How do you know what sources of information, Dew had available to him?

[Sunny Delight]

I couldn't agree more with you Sunny Delight.

My real name is Pat, John. Yes it is to be borne in mind by us all that these were a series of very brutal murders and I wouldn't like my name bandied about even in 130 years time over a murder today. For me the interesting thing about Goldstein is he co-orborates Mrs. Mortimer. She saw him and was at her door when she said she was. By all intents and purposes it seems likely the measured steps she heard pass her door, which she took for a Policeman, was actually the murderer. Nothing else would make sense in regards timing.

[John Wheat]

Goldstein was eliminated at the time by the Police. His direction of travel was not a concern to them. His alibi we should assume was checked at the shop where he had been. He may have been well known. It's a nonsense to even suggest him. This was an actual person and sometimes we forget that even after the passage of time throwing accusations around is not right.

I couldn't agree more with you Sunny Delight.

[Sunny Delight]

It's just your opinion that Leon Goldstein should be on the suspect list. If the Ripper was indeed known to Scotland Yard wouldnt they announce who it was? Leon Goldstein is in my opinion not worth a closer look.

Goldstein was eliminated at the time by the Police. His direction of travel was not a concern to them. His alibi we should assume was checked at the shop where he had been. He may have been well known. It's a nonsense to even suggest him. This was an actual person and sometimes we forget that even after the passage of time throwing accusations around is not right.

[Sunny Delight]

Perhaps George, the problem with taking a closer look at Leon Goldstein, is the fear that it might become supposed that this case was solved in the 19th century. Many people do not want this case to be solved, ever. Some of them even admit this.

What I find interesting is how Walter Dew came to make the comments he did. Especially this:

Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes. This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer.

Note the wording; it is more than probable that Mrs. Mortimer was the only person to ever see the Ripper at one of his crime scenes.

Dew seems to be absolutely adamant that black bag man was JtR, and so to anyone who thinks that Goldstein is not worth a closer look, I just have one question; where's your head at?

Other than the obvious, what is interesting about Dew's comments is his naming of Mortimer, and his non-naming of Goldstein. The Evening News report does not name the witness. The Morning Advertiser report of Goldstein's visit to Leman street station with Wess, does give his name. Neither report says anything about the man's dress or appearance, yet Dew says:

A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

It seems Dew's comments on Berner street were not a matter of referring to his personal cache of contemporary newspaper reports. Instead, he seems to have had access to evidence that is now lost.

It is widely accepted that Goldstein came forward to identify himself as the man seen at 1am or thereabouts by Mrs Mortimer. The Police then eliminated him from their enquiries. Dew was writing 50 years after the event. Most likely from what he had compiled the man described by Mortimer seemed a certain fit. He didn't have access to the Police files we have now. It's that simple.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Perhaps George, the problem with taking a closer look at Leon Goldstein, is the fear that it might become supposed that this case was solved in the 19th century. Many people do not want this case to be solved, ever. Some of them even admit this.

What I find interesting is how Walter Dew came to make the comments he did. Especially this:

Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes. This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer.

Note the wording; it is more than probable that Mrs. Mortimer was the only person to ever see the Ripper at one of his crime scenes.

Dew seems to be absolutely adamant that black bag man was JtR, and so to anyone who thinks that Goldstein is not worth a closer look, I just have one question; where's your head at?

Other than the obvious, what is interesting about Dew's comments is his naming of Mortimer, and his non-naming of Goldstein. The Evening News report does not name the witness. The Morning Advertiser report of Goldstein's visit to Leman street station with Wess, does give his name. Neither report says anything about the man's dress or appearance, yet Dew says:

A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

It seems Dew's comments on Berner street were not a matter of referring to his personal cache of contemporary newspaper reports. Instead, he seems to have had access to evidence that is now lost.