A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[c.d.]

Not one of whom recalled seeing Stride standing in the gateway.

I'm not sure what that has to do with whether Stride was soliciting. But if they did not see her what can we conclude from that?

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm not sure what that has to do with whether Stride was soliciting. But if they did not see her what can we conclude from that?

c.d.

We can conclude that your claim she was in an excellent place to meet clients is not matched by the known evidence, and consequently the notion of Stride standing alone at the gateway to Dutfield's Yard remains unexplained.

[c.d.]

We can conclude that your claim she was in an excellent place to meet clients is not matched by the known evidence, and consequently the notion of Stride standing alone at the gateway to Dutfield's Yard remains unexplained.

No, I never claimed she was in an "excellent place" to meet clients. Only that potential clients were there. And as for her standing alone, I have no explanation nor have I ever claimed that I did.

So you cannot explain why Stride was standing alone either, correct?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Long time no speak!

I too believe that Stride intended to be right where she was at the time she was seen there.

If a woman who is out on her own at night is chatted up by a man, she will soon make up her mind whether to respond in kind, or be more reserved and cautious, or to make her excuses and walk away. If Stride had been approached by any man she did not want to engage with, because he gave off vibes that made her uneasy, she could have done worse than to make her way to the club, where she would find people still around at that time of night, who could provide safety in numbers if required. She need not have gone there expecting to meet a particular individual, and I doubt her killer was someone she trusted and was hoping to see there. The man clearly wanted her dead for whatever reason, and he had the knife to do it, while Stride seemingly had no inkling that anyone meant her serious harm until it was too late. Stranger danger is how I see this one playing out.

The police knew enough about murder to question and try to eliminate anyone who knew or had a relationship with the victim, and Kidney was ruled out accordingly. If there is no evidence that Stride was frightened of Kidney, or was being physically threatened by him, I would have to give him - and the police - the benefit of the doubt.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi again Caz,

I think that IF Israels story is truthful then she likely did as you described above, underlined. Or at least she thought it was safe to do so. As for Kidney, Im sure he did pass the test with investigators but when you mentioned jealous as a possible incitement, thats what I thought of. Its one thing having your girl break up with you, and another to find out that within days she is making dates with other men...and I get the feeling that Kidney might harbour some antisemitic thoughts by his comments at the Inquest.

I can see Liz being there to meet someone, there to assist Mrs D with the cleanup, or there waiting for someone to come out.....its the fact that she intimated to her lodgemate that she didnt know when she would be back..and entrusted her with a piece of fabric she obviously cared about. That sounds like an all night plan to me. Which again could be work or date.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure what that has to do with whether Stride was soliciting. But if they did not see her what can we conclude from that?

c.d.

I think the intention of that comment was to suggest that she was out of sight on the property...which a street walker would only do when with a client. Like in Hanbury. We have nothing to suggest that between 12:30 and 1am that she was "with" anyone.

[Lewis C]

As far as her response of "No, not tonight" we can't be certain of whether it applied solely to that particular individual or was indicative of her mindset for the evening. It could be she had dealings with him before. Maybe he smelled bad, or was rough or had a habit of being reluctant to pay up once activities had finished. Just sayin'.

c.d.

In fact, we don't even know if in saying that, she was rejecting the other man. For example, it could have been the answer to a question like "have you been drinking?", to give one of just many possible examples.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, I never claimed she was in an "excellent place" to meet clients. Only that potential clients were there. And as for her standing alone, I have no explanation nor have I ever claimed that I did.

Michael said ...

What there is not is street traffic, the lifeblood of a street walker.

... to which you replied ...

I would argue that the lifeblood of a street walker is "men" no matter where they are found. And what was the club full of? Men. And young men to boot.

The implication being that it makes sense for her to be standing at the gateway, if she were soliciting. The problem being that given we have no reports of anyone seeing her do so, either side of the alleged assault, it would seem her decision to solicit from the gateway was a poor one. Assuming, that is, the story of her standing there is true.

By the way, the club was not full of young men at the time - most of them had gone home. If only Elizabeth had turned up when the club event was actually in progress, rather than leaving herself exposed on a lonely street, as we are led to believe. The non-club member Abraham Herschburg said:

The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women.

This aligns well with club members at the inquest stating they had never seen prostitutes near the yard. Perhaps we should believe them? Where do those who suppose Stride was soliciting suggest she was intending to go with her clients?

So you cannot explain why Stride was standing alone either, correct?

I don't believe Schwartz's story, so I'm not trying to squeeze a reality out of facts that don't match. The other reasons for Stride being alone there are just as poor. Like, she was with a man who decided to waltz in off the street and use the Dutfield's Yard loos like they were open to the public. Then, just as he's sitting on the throne, along comes Jack and kills his female companion. What does he do then, aside from wiping his arse? Does he chase the culprit and never return to Liz? What a bizarre notion. Then there is the suggestion that the man she was with had gone inside the club to do business (of another sort). Meanwhile, Liz is left to stand at the gates, as though she had the social status of a pet dog. Why couldn't she come inside and talk to the women in the kitchen, for example? Again, a bizarre notion.

[c.d.]

This aligns well with club members at the inquest stating they had never seen prostitutes near the yard. Perhaps we should believe them?

"Yes officer, you see in addition to being an anarchist club which the police hate, we condone and encourage prostitution in the vicinity of our club."

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In fact, we don't even know if in saying that, she was rejecting the other man. For example, it could have been the answer to a question like "have you been drinking?", to give one of just many possible examples.

Another assumption bites the dust. The next that needs to be challenged is that it was Stride who uttered the words "No, not tonight; some other night."

[c.d.]

By the way, the club was not full of young men at the time - most of them had gone home.

Young, old, middle aged,or elderly. They were still men.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

"Yes officer, you see in addition to being an anarchist club which the police hate, we condone and encourage prostitution in the vicinity of our club."

Having opened the door to the possibility that three club members lied under oath (Wess, Eagle, Diemschitz), I dare you to walk through that doorway and have a look around.

[The Rookie Detective]

Is there a possibility that Stride was correctly or mistakenly murdered because one of the club members thought she was a police informant?

It is known that certain individuals at the club were on the police radar and the club itself was being observed due to it's relatively radical political stance.

Therefore, could Stride have been viewed as someone spying on the club?

Her face didn't fit and all it would take would be for one of the more radical members to not believe her reasons for being there.
Could her attempt at dressing up, wearing a flower and generally making an effort in her appearance, have worked against her in that moment?
In other words; had Stride have been soliciting, would it have saved her because she would have a degree of transparency,, ergo, there would have been a perceived reason for her being there.

Just a thought


RD

[Lewis C]

Another assumption bites the dust. The next that needs to be challenged is that it was Stride who uttered the words "No, not tonight; some other night."

There are some who have argued that it's unlikely that the woman that James Brown saw was Stride. If they're right about that, that would mean that Stride didn't utter those words.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Is there a possibility that Stride was correctly or mistakenly murdered because one of the club members thought she was a police informant?

It is known that certain individuals at the club were on the police radar and the club itself was being observed due to it's relatively radical political stance.

Therefore, could Stride have been viewed as someone spying on the club?

Stride's presence is the yard might have seemed out of place compared to a weekend or two earlier. An Irish Times reporter was on Berner St around dawn on the morning of the double event:

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

Her face didn't fit and all it would take would be for one of the more radical members to not believe her reasons for being there.
Could her attempt at dressing up, wearing a flower and generally making an effort in her appearance, have worked against her in that moment?
In other words; had Stride have been soliciting, would it have saved her because she would have a degree of transparency,, ergo, there would have been a perceived reason for her being there.

Perhaps Stride had dressed up because she wanted to be one of the women brought to the club for the men's entertainment. That is, she went to the club for the purpose of auditioning. That might explain why she arrived on the scene after the event had finished, and most of the attendees had left. Does her effort with her appearance suggest she was intending to make a good first impression?

[The Rookie Detective]

Stride's presence is the yard might have seemed out of place compared to a weekend or two earlier. An Irish Times reporter was on Berner St around dawn on the morning of the double event:

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

Perhaps Stride had dressed up because she wanted to be one of the women brought to the club for the men's entertainment. That is, she went to the club for the purpose of auditioning. That might explain why she arrived on the scene after the event had finished, and most of the attendees had left. Does her effort with her appearance suggest she was intending to make a good first impression?

That's an excellent post

The claim that "women and girls" were brought there, would suggest that Stride may have been brought there for precisely that reason; to entertain the men after hours and put on a performance for them.
Perhaps she was instructed to wait outside until she was called in?

Where does that leave Eagle? A man who leaves the club with his sweetheart, dropping her back home, but rather than spending the night with her, he returns to the club...for what reason? could he have gone back to the club because of Stride? Could Eagle have dropped his girlfriend back home and then returned to the club because he wanted to try it on with Stride?
Could she have rejected Eagle, on the basis that she had seen him leave with his girlfriend earlier?

Or perhaps Lave went outside and saw her. He may have talked with her and/or possibly known she was a prostitute (despite her efforts to dress and impress) and assumed he could have his way with her.

Could she have bought the Cachou with her in preparation for the evening ahead, ergo, she wanted to freshen her breath for whatever reason.

An after-hours performance for a group of men who were mainly radical in their political views.


Interesting possibilities


Chris