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How well did Jack know the East End?

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  • #61
    So Jack has knowledge of the residents' sleeping and toilet habits?
    I couldn't tell you how long I will spend talking to MrsB tomorrow night
    or how many times I may need to have a leak. Is it really conceivable
    that by lurking outside my window night after night someone else could?

    MrBarnett

    You're kinda naive. He does not need all that. If he had tried bringing a prostitute in the back of 29 Hanbury before or 2x,with the noises from walking, maybe small talk,maybe a thud do people come out and ask whats going on,did they care,did he hear conversations or see people going in and out which would have told him if people are awake and up and about at that time.It's still risky.Judging from newspaper reports of witnesses they don't and this reflects what he could have been through or the norm at that building.all those would have gave him the idea if murder was doable.
    He also got to have sense of what he was capable of,the ability to do it relatively quietly.Minding the situation he then had to decide there and then if it was ok.If the conditions above were the opposite then not.

    Outside a few people walking would have been fine. How would they know what went on inside.
    He was seen by Lawende and company,Long,and in my opinion Sarah Lewis,but he did not mind this (this may reflect he was non-local but the area was densely populated).
    Again newspaper reports of witnesses seeing a man coming outside that building was nil and reflective of the situation.
    Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
    M. Pacana

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Varqm View Post
      So Jack has knowledge of the residents' sleeping and toilet habits?
      I couldn't tell you how long I will spend talking to MrsB tomorrow night
      or how many times I may need to have a leak. Is it really conceivable
      that by lurking outside my window night after night someone else could?

      MrBarnett

      You're kinda naive. He does not need all that. If he had tried bringing a prostitute in the back of 29 Hanbury before or 2x,with the noises from walking, maybe small talk,maybe a thud do people come out and ask whats going on,did they care,did he hear conversations or see people going in and out which would have told him if people are awake and up and about at that time.It's still risky.Judging from newspaper reports of witnesses they don't and this reflects what he could have been through or the norm at that building.all those would have gave him the idea if murder was doable.
      He also got to have sense of what he was capable of,the ability to do it relatively quietly.Minding the situation he then had to decide there and then if it was ok.If the conditions above were the opposite then not.

      Outside a few people walking would have been fine. How would they know what went on inside.
      He was seen by Lawende and company,Long,and in my opinion Sarah Lewis,but he did not mind this (this may reflect he was non-local but the area was densely populated).
      Again newspaper reports of witnesses seeing a man coming outside that building was nil and reflective of the situation.
      My comments were meant to be ironic.

      The privy was in the yard, for god sake, he had no idea when one of the residents might feel the call of nature. His strengths were speed of disablement and execution of his urges, and a certain disregard for risk. The risk he took would have been the same if he had used the yard a dozen times before or never. So I see no need to attribute significant local knowledge to him.

      MrB

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      • #63
        Perhaps there was a specific reason he chose hanbury street? Such as he once lived there....he knew someone lived there...worked next door...he lived close so could quickly make his escape and be inside....I don't think it was random. I think he put thought into using that specific yard

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        • #64
          Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
          Perhaps there was a specific reason he chose hanbury street? Such as he once lived there....he knew someone lived there...worked next door...he lived close so could quickly make his escape and be inside....I don't think it was random. I think he put thought into using that specific yard
          Hi Rocky,

          And Dutfield Yard?

          MrB

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          • #65
            It did indeed have a reputation for unauthorised use. John Richardson described how he used to inspect the place to make sure it wasn't bring used by prostitutes and their customers. But let's not confuse dossing or illicit sex with bloody murder and evisceration. If someone was dozing on the stairs and a couple walked through to the yard for a quickie, the dosser probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow. But if the woman suddenly started screaming 'murder' it would be an altogether different matter.
            But as the killer was able to ensure that the woman didn't suddenly start screaming 'Murder' there is no problem with the raising of dossers' eyebrows. I agree with Damaso - the back yard at 29 Hanbury Street was a trap only on paper. The door opened outwards. There would be no danger of disturbance by anyone entering the yard if the killer was somehow able to keep it shut. I do wonder if there was someone who used to take a small fee for ensuring that prostitutes and their clients were left undisturbed.
            "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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            • #66
              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
              But if the woman suddenly started screaming 'murder' it would be an altogether different matter.
              Jack, however, was an expert at this not happening...not outdoors, at least.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post
                Jack, however, was an expert at this not happening...not outdoors, at least.
                And so he didn't need to factor the possibility into a choice of venue. Escape routes weren't an issue and therefore detailed local knowledge wasn't necessary.

                MrB

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                  But as the killer was able to ensure that the woman didn't suddenly start screaming 'Murder' there is no problem with the raising of dossers' eyebrows. I agree with Damaso - the back yard at 29 Hanbury Street was a trap only on paper. The door opened outwards. There would be no danger of disturbance by anyone entering the yard if the killer was somehow able to keep it shut. I do wonder if there was someone who used to take a small fee for ensuring that prostitutes and their clients were left undisturbed.
                  That's a smart theory bridewell!

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                  • #69
                    This was quite late in the day for murder, though. People in the house were stirring, so were people in the streets. Didnt Amelia Richardson have a hired hand, Francis Tyler, who worked in the cellar of No 29 in her packing case business? He was supposed to start work at 6am. He often didnt turn up on time apparently, but what if he'd turned up early?

                    There were three workmen near 23A waiting to start work when John Davis rushed into the street at about 5:50am.Successful murderers need huge amounts of luck. Jack took risks but his luck held.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                      That's a smart theory bridewell!
                      Yeah, I can just picture him patting his pockets before leaving out:

                      'Keys. Knife. Door Wedge.'

                      MrB

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                      • #71
                        My opinion but more likely that his previous experiences with these places created informed decisions which created better luck. More likely than sheer luck 4 or 5 murders in a row. All he needed was 5-10 minutes. Got nothing to do with urinals.
                        Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                        M. Pacana

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I'm not comfortable with this idea of The Ripper as some kind of evil genius who had timed the local bobby's beats to the exact minute. I still believe that the killer was opportunistic in nature, had a good knowledge of the local area to make a quick getaway but most importantly he was LUCKY.
                          Last edited by Harry D; 09-27-2014, 04:42 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Don't forget that the fence around the yard at 29 Hanbury Street was not like a prison wall. It is within the bounds of possibilty that JtR was agile enough to get over a yard fence. When we start thinking that he was so lucky not to be noticed coming out the front of 29 Hanbury Street into a street starting to stir with morning traffic, we must also start thinking that it becomes more likely that he went over the back fence, so didn't need that much luck at all.

                            NB: We are dealing in likelihoods/probabilities. There are very few known, absolute facts about how these crimes were committed.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Qlder View Post
                              Don't forget that the fence around the yard at 29 Hanbury Street was not like a prison wall. It is within the bounds of possibilty that JtR was agile enough to get over a yard fence. When we start thinking that he was so lucky not to be noticed coming out the front of 29 Hanbury Street into a street starting to stir with morning traffic, we must also start thinking that it becomes more likely that he went over the back fence, so didn't need that much luck at all.

                              NB: We are dealing in likelihoods/probabilities. There are very few known, absolute facts about how these crimes were committed.
                              Echoes of Spring-heeled Jack here. 'Leaps tall buildings in a single bound'

                              Seriously, do you think that was part of his plan, to vault into Albert Cadosch's back yard? Then what? Over the next fence and then the next and then ...

                              MrB

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                                Yeah, I can just picture him patting his pockets before leaving out:

                                'Keys. Knife. Door Wedge.'

                                MrB
                                I meant bride wells theory of someone in the building being payed off to leave prostitutes & johns alone. The ripper was likely a john with lots and lots of experience...he probably frequented prostitutes whenever possible and was familiar with little things like this

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