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How well did Jack know the East End?

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  • #16
    Can we keep this a suspect-free thread? The question can be addressed perfectly well without inviting... what was it we used to call it? oh, yes... "kudzu"

    My 4d: Jack would have known the immediate area rather well. He may also have had a knowledge of police beats, as he certainly seems to have been in the right places at the right time. The only exception, perhaps, was Mitre Square - if we could re-run history, Harvey and Watkins might easily have caught him in the act. Perhaps, therefore, his knowledge of the westernmost part of his patch (i.e. the City) wasn't as well-honed as his familiarity with "Whitechapel" itself.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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    • #17
      If our killer knew the area very well why didn't he seek out someone like Mary Kelly in the first place?By finding a victim with their own room he could spend as much time indulging himself as he wanted I think he came across his victims by chance and they took him to places that offerd a small degree of privacy.
      Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
        I think there's a big difference between wandering with no care in the world and getting away from a major crime, where getting caught would result in execution.

        There's also a slight psychological difference between doing an immediate act in a risky location, and doing it in a risky location where you have no idea about the local circumstances - how quiet it tends to be where you end up if you turn left or right, where there is a cut through that you could lose someone who tries to follow.
        Well, no 18 year old girl in her right mind wanders about the big cities of Europe more that slightly drunk without a care in the world. Especially in Prague where at that time being caught by the wrong people absolutely did result in execution. I was always HIGHLY motivated to get to a major artery for extraction. And yeah I screwed up some, but mostly I could navigate. Especially in Paris and London where at worst I had to head towards the river. Any idiot could get out with at least a small degree of area knowledge.

        But thats not the problem. There is no way in any of the cities I got lost in could I have found some surefire way of finding a woman alone. I had a hell of a time finding payphones, and this was back when payphones were everywhere. Fleeing is easy. Finding victims is the hard part if you don't know the area.
        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by pinkmoon View Post
          If our killer knew the area very well why didn't he seek out someone like Mary Kelly in the first place?
          In an overcrowded district like Whitechapel, single occupancy rooms were in a decided minority. By contrast, it wouldn't have been uncommon to find a desperate waif wandering the streets alone. A local killer would have known both those facts. Indeed, if Kelly hadn't been one of the few to have a pad of her own, chances are she'd have been butchered on the streets like the others. It was her misfortune, and the killer's luck, that her domestic circumstances were such that he could really go to town on her.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Errata View Post
            I was always HIGHLY motivated to get to a major artery for extraction.
            You and Jack, both
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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            • #21
              It's amazing that they just didn't wander about aimlessly in circles given that they didn't have smartphones!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Barnaby View Post
                It's amazing that they just didn't wander about aimlessly in circles given that they didn't have smartphones!
                From what I've seen, that's precisely what people with smartphones actually do.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  From what I've seen, that's precisely what people with smartphones actually do.
                  No dear. People with smart phones wander INTO things. Not around things.
                  The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Errata View Post
                    No dear. People with smart phones wander INTO things. Not around things.
                    Ah, so they do! I was thinking of moths.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Errata View Post
                      Well, no 18 year old girl in her right mind wanders about the big cities of Europe more that slightly drunk without a care in the world. Especially in Prague where at that time being caught by the wrong people absolutely did result in execution. I was always HIGHLY motivated to get to a major artery for extraction. And yeah I screwed up some, but mostly I could navigate. Especially in Paris and London where at worst I had to head towards the river. Any idiot could get out with at least a small degree of area knowledge.

                      But thats not the problem. There is no way in any of the cities I got lost in could I have found some surefire way of finding a woman alone. I had a hell of a time finding payphones, and this was back when payphones were everywhere. Fleeing is easy. Finding victims is the hard part if you don't know the area.

                      I lived in Whitechapel from 1988-1994 and could find my way about reasonably ok within a half mile radius.Other than that there were places i knew how to get to,but many that i didnt.

                      Being in the wrong place does make you look for areas with people and preferably well lit surroundings.Having got really lost in San Salvador,one of the worlds most dangerous cities,i was VERY motivated to find somewhere safe.By the time i did i was shaking, maybe more from perceived threats but there were certainly real threats around,though murdering a foreigner is rare,it draws too much police attention.Nice to know thats about your only protection.

                      JTR must have felt at least a bit worried he might get caught,so his aim would be to get off the streets as quick as possible and into his bolt hole.after all if he was caught he would have hung

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                      • #26
                        Spitalfields today is quite upmarket. Houses in Fournier Street/Princelet Street, when they come up for sale, fetch up to £4million ($6m+), The public urinal outside Christ Church was recently up for sale for £850K.

                        I wonder how often people who live in these properties venture across Whitechapel High Street and then again across the Commercial Road into St George in the East?

                        And before affordable public transport and cars people were even more territorial. Beyond their home turf (a few interconnected streets) their places of work and attractions such as markets and pubs, the wider East End would have been as mysterious to most East Enders as the West End (the 'Uvver End').

                        So how would Jack have acquired a detailed knowledge of the shagging spots of Spitalfields, Whitechapel St Georges and the City?

                        Only if he had the leisure and inclination to do so. So a posh slummer or a latter day Rodinsky?

                        MrB
                        Last edited by MrBarnett; 09-23-2014, 05:45 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
                          Yes but to have the confidence to do it, knowing that he knew the different routes in and out and where they led would have been important.
                          That is why criminals tend to operate in areas they are familiar with - in that sense a serial killer would be similar to a normal criminal.
                          The most common assumption and one that I am virtually certain was the case - is that the victim took the culprit to the eventual crime scene. It was her choice. I think the killer would have to be confident himself that such a place was safe for his purposes before he went ahead. It is not always necessarily the case that a suitable location for a sexual assignation will be a suitable place to kill, rip up and escape unseen.
                          This is interesting. If I could go back in time, I'd try to convince the police to ask prostitutes if they ever met a client who changed his mind when brought to a location to perform the deed. As if he didn't feel the place was safe enough for him (light in windows, too much noise around/awake people)
                          Is it progress when a cannibal uses a fork?
                          - Stanislaw Jerzy Lee

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by pinkmoon View Post
                            If our killer knew the area very well why didn't he seek out someone like Mary Kelly in the first place?By finding a victim with their own room he could spend as much time indulging himself as he wanted I think he came across his victims by chance and they took him to places that offerd a small degree of privacy.
                            maybe he got his thrill by killing outside and leaving the body for everyone to see.
                            In october, There were three times the police officers patrolling the streets that there were in July. Plus there was the vigilante committee, and disguised officers.
                            He did wait 5 weeks before killing again. Told himself "screw that, I love killing too much, next one is inside."
                            Is it progress when a cannibal uses a fork?
                            - Stanislaw Jerzy Lee

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Errata View Post
                              Having been lost in some of the finest cities in the world, I can say with a certain authority that finding a way out is much easier than say, attempting to locate a specific address. Cities herd people towards large arteries. There is more light, more sound, more movement. Even in the dead of night. Towards warehouse districts is always wrong, towards businesses like bars and restaurants is always right. Towards a river is also almost always right.

                              Give me an address to locate in London, and I promise you I wont find it. Drop me in the middle of London blindfolded, and I can find my way to a major road, and therefor a cab. As long as Jack's sense of direction wasn't totally absent, he didn't need to know the area to escape from it. On the other hand, he did need to know it to find women to solicit who were on their own.
                              hmm. Reading the inquest of Nichols, both men who found her body heard each others when they were at 120 feet. If you can't see at that distance, it makes the escape more challenging, unless you know the area very well.
                              Is it progress when a cannibal uses a fork?
                              - Stanislaw Jerzy Lee

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                              • #30
                                Sir John ,

                                The guy is getting cleverer by the minute. He now has to take into account the visibility in the streets/times of day.

                                Sorry , mate, don't get it. In Bucks Row, if you are discovered, you run in one direction or the other and branch off when required. Same as any other mid-street attack. Not an option in the yard of 29 Hanbury Street, or Miller's Court for that matter.

                                MrB

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