How well did Jack know the East End?

[MrBarnett]

Hi Rocky,

Paid off by whom?

MrB

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

Paid off by whom?

MrB

Prostitutes, Pimps or Johns who else?

[MrBarnett]

Prostitutes, Pimps or Johns who else?

Interesting. Are we just talking Hanbury Street here or the other locations as well?

How do you see it working in practice? Was it pay as you go, or did they pay a weekly retainer?

MrB

[RockySullivan]

Interesting. Are we just talking Hanbury Street here or the other locations as well?

How do you see it working in practice? Was it pay as you go, or did they pay a weekly retainer?

MrB

I thing there were probably a few places where people where payed to turn a blind eye...its bridewell's theory.....i like it....weekly retainer...pay as you go...monthly fee to the landlord...it could be anyway really. But your original question of who is paying is a good question....

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I thing there were probably a few places where people where payed to turn a blind eye...its bridewell's theory.....i like it....weekly retainer...pay as you go...monthly fee to the landlord...it could be anyway really. But your original question of who is paying is a good question....

Dew's memoirs underline the importance of gangs. Maybe there were territorial weekly protection money.

a % of the money from lodging houses, maybe?

It could also be an interesting hypothesis that Jack was caught by some people from the underworld, and they just killed him. That's why he stopped.

There is, I think, no way to prove that.

[RockySullivan]

Mr. B....it's hard to imagine street walking gals coming up with a bribe....John's wouldn't be organized to pay unless they did pay one at a time...were there any gangs involved with pimping on the east end? Could they have payed a bribe for their girls & John's to be left alone..or perhaps someone who lived in the building was also a prostitute and took clients in the yard? There are alot of possibilities...not all likely but I think the ripper would have chosen spots who knew were safe and whats safer than good old $.

[RockySullivan]

Dew's memoirs underline the importance of gangs. Maybe there were territorial weekly protection money.

a % of the money from lodging houses, maybe?

It could also be an interesting hypothesis that Jack was caught by some people from the underworld, and they just killed him. That's why he stopped.

There is, I think, no way to prove that.

Thanks sir looks like we had the same idea!

[MrBarnett]

Mr. B....it's hard to imagine street walking gals coming up with a bribe....John's wouldn't be organized to pay unless they did pay one at a time...were there any gangs involved with pimping on the east end? Could they have payed a bribe for their girls & John's to be left alone..or perhaps someone who lived in the building was also a prostitute and took clients in the yard? There are alot of possibilities...not all likely but I think the ripper would have chosen spots who knew were safe and whats safer than good old $.

Hi Rocky,

The street door and yard door at Hanbury Street were often left open all night, and the passageway was often used by dossers. How would it have been possible for whoever was taking this bribe to ensure that only those women whose pimp had paid up could use the yard ? Would someone sit on the stairs all night and eject any woman who didn't have a pass?

There were gangs operating in the area and no doubt prostitution was one of their rackets. But I don't think the victims of JTR were being actively pimped. They were casuals, who barely brought in enough money to afford a bed each night. The way I think the gangs worked was to patrol the streets and shake down any prostitutes or customers they came across. The prime time for this sort of activity was between the closing of the pubs and around 1 in the morning.

But even if we accept that a few pence changed hands to ensure a couple weren't ejected by John Richardson, say, do you think that payment gave Jack a licence to murder and eviscerate?

MrB

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

The street door and yard door at Hanbury Street were often left open all night, and the passageway was often used by dossers. How would it have been possible for whoever was taking this bribe to ensure that only those women whose pimp had paid up could use the yard ? Would someone sit on the stairs all night and eject any woman who didn't have a pass?

There were gangs operating in the area and no doubt prostitution was one of their rackets. But I don't think the victims of JTR were being actively pimped. They were casuals, who barely brought in enough money to afford a bed each night. The way I think the gangs worked was to patrol the streets and shake down any prostitutes or customers they came across. The prime time for this sort of activity was between the closing of the pubs and around 1 in the morning.

And even if we accept that a few pence changed hands to ensure a couple weren't ejected by John Richardson, say, do you think that payment gave Jack a licence to murder and eviscerate?

MrB

It could have perhaps given him the privacy...as long as he made sure the gal didnt scream out...he could have been sure he wouldnt be disturbed

[Rosella]

But he could have been disturbed, at any moment, by any of the seventeen inhabitants of No 29 who might have decided to visit the privy. After all, carmen like Davis and Thompson left for work early. John Richardson, who was a market porter, lived in John St, Spitalfields, and went to the markets early so he wouldnt have been hanging round his mother's place half the night.

[MrBarnett]

But he could have been disturbed, at any moment, by any of the seventeen inhabitants of No 29 who might have decided to visit the privy. After all, carmen like Davis and Thompson left for work early. John Richardson, who was a market porter, lived in John St, Spitalfields, and went to the markets early so he wouldnt have been hanging round his mother's place half the night.

Precisely, Rosella.

I can just about accept that maybe Richardson was choosy about who he kicked out. But I doubt he policed the yard all night long.

And something else to bear in mind: if, as it has been suggested, Jack used these locations frequently and they were monitored by gangs/pimps, he would presumably be well known to them. How would that make it safer for him?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi Rocky,

The street door and yard door at Hanbury Street were often left open all night, and the passageway was often used by dossers. How would it have been possible for whoever was taking this bribe to ensure that only those women whose pimp had paid up could use the yard ? Would someone sit on the stairs all night and eject any woman who didn't have a pass?

There were gangs operating in the area and no doubt prostitution was one of their rackets. But I don't think the victims of JTR were being actively pimped. They were casuals, who barely brought in enough money to afford a bed each night. The way I think the gangs worked was to patrol the streets and shake down any prostitutes or customers they came across. The prime time for this sort of activity was between the closing of the pubs and around 1 in the morning.

But even if we accept that a few pence changed hands to ensure a couple weren't ejected by John Richardson, say, do you think that payment gave Jack a licence to murder and eviscerate?

MrB

I'm not sure they were paid, I think they were more threaten, if anything. They were told to turn a blind eye. When you do so, you do so, you just let anyone do any business they choose to.

I don't think anyone let those murders happen. they just didn't know.

Like someone said earlier, I don't think any of the victims were part of an organized prostitution system.

This is purely speculation on my part.

[Michael W Richards]

The real question here seems to be "How did the killer(s) evade detection when they left the crime scene, if not by using an in depth knowledge of the alleys, lanes and streets?"

The first 2 women were seemingly picked up by chance, the killer posing as a client in order to get them somewhere dark and quiet. That doesn't mean the final location choice was within his control, therefore the best egress route from those scenes would be unknown to him when he first meets up with the women. Street women would have had favourite nooks and crannies to conduct their business when they needed to, we know that the Hanbury site was such a place. But the killer, assuming he didn't know his victims beforehand,. would have no knowledge of the preferences of individual street prostitutes.

When discussing these murders I believe its wise to remember that we can say accurately that ONLY the first 2 Canonicals were actively soliciting when they met their killer, by virtue of the testimony of witnesses and friends of the victims who spoke with them on those respective nights. There is no such empirical evidence for Liz Stride, Catharine Eddowes or Mary Kelly. Which means that its possible all of those women, or some of them, were specifically sought by their killer, which is not the acquisition methodology used in the first 2 kills. No posing as a client, therefore no excuse to have them accompany him to a dark spot to conduct business.

So why would they go with him? In the case of Liz Stride, she is nicely dressed, flower on her jacket and cashous in her hand, and she died within feet of the open gates and street. Catharine was found in the square, but seen with someone she apparently knew outside it. Mary was in bed. Her own bed, in a nondescript little courtyard. Her killer came to her.

When you generalize and suggest that all the women were probably soliciting, some of these facts will directly contradict you...like in Marys case, so its best to only assume what is substantiated by some corroborative evidence.

If you do that you will see that the man who killed the first 2 women likely knew the ins and outs of the area quite well, since its appears he allowed the women to choose the "dark" spot, and he used his wits and knowledge to leave the sites unseen. In the latter cases, if the killer(s) went specifically to these women, then he(they) could have planned out which routes to use ahead of time, thereby negating the idea that he just used his knowledge spontaneously...it would have been planning that aided him.

Liz Strides killer could have been let out the front door to Berner Street once the murder was detected, there is no need for him to have had any special knowledge about what route to take, it would be either left or right.....Catharines killer might have come from the city or Central London, without an in depth understanding of the streets, and he had 3 choices for egress...assuming he didn't know about Watkins and Harveys schedules, ....and the only people that would be in Millers Court would be residents, and since she is likely murdered sometime after the "oh-Murder" is heard..(the evidence suggests Mary herself made that call out, likely from an open door)..the courtyard residents were in their rooms, and aside from visiting Sarah, they were likely sleeping soundly when the murder occurs. A stroll through the tunnel to the street, a quick peek each way, and off he goes.

Of the five murders, only the first 2, since the killer didn't pick those venues, seem to have indications the killer knew the surrounding streets well. All 3 of the others may have been pre-planned events.

Cheers

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Interesting summarization, Michael.

One question: since Nichols was very drunk, and as I understand it, she was found on the sidewalk on a dark street, maybe JtR just attacked her by surprise?

[Rosella]

Men wore hob nailed boots in working class districts in those days, so his actually approaching her wouldn't have been a surprise (sound echoing on the cobbles.)

However, if he had come up very close surely Nichols would have had time to emit one scream at least, which could have been heard by residents nearby. Of course, there were train whistles from nearby passing freight trains so perhaps a scream wouldn't have been heard.

I was thinking about the Kelly murder yesterday, and if knowledge of the broken window, no key and easy to manipulate spring lock on her door, had become known, how easy would it have been for an intruder (Jack?) to have got into her room while Mary was lying in a drunken sleep. Perhaps just before the cry of 'Oh Murder' was heard at about 4am. (Her last client could have left hours before.)