Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Wickerman]

I would ask the question...

Why did Packer change his initial account in which he claimed he saw nothing, to a story that involved a potentially significant sighting of a woman shortly before she was murdered?

This change seemed to have only occurred AFTER Le Grand and Batchelor had interviewed him.

It might be fair to say Packer only realized something after seeing the body at the morgue. Only then did he realize he had served this woman who had appeared with a man at his shop window.
Then his memory came back?

I'm not too concerned about the issue of rain, Packer was not outside like all the other witnesses.
Spots of rain on his dirty windows might have looked more intense, but for those standing outside it was merely spitting, hardly noticeable?
To me it's not a deal breaker, its more of a subjective issue.

[Wickerman]

Yes an apology was necessary I feel, I try to hold myself to a high standard when commenting...

Well, there was no hard feelings at my end, I take a lot of exchanges as light hearted banter. If you were to read some past debates I've been involved in it might make your hair curl, but there's never any real animosity. Were all friends at the end of the day, regardless what passes in a brief moment of passion?

I keep referring to Sugden but he does lay it out very very well. The one that really clinched Packer's guilt as exploiting the situation for me was the change in story over the grapes. On 1st October the Daily News carried the story by Diemschutz, Kozebrodski and Mortimer alleging Stride had been found with a bunch of grapes in her hand. Originally of course Packer had told Sgt White on 30th September he had closed early at 11am.

Well, Packer said 12:30 on Sgt. White's report (Sugden p.218), and maybe you had not noticed, but Sugden makes no mention of the two witnesses who saw Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms - Best & Gardiner.
Sugden was not aware of their evidence, which is why he (wrongly) concludes Packer must? have served Stride at 11:00 not 12:00.
As I said, even though Sugden is on top of the pile of eminent Ripper authors, he had less evidence with which to draw conclusions than we do today.
Which means we are better able to assess what might have occurred, and that is no criticism of Sugden. It's just a fact of the time when he conducted his research there were no computers at the Newspaper Archive, his search was manual.

As for Public House closing times - on a Saturday night it is midnight, which only reinforces the 12:30 time when he shut up shop, because he used the closing time in his judgement. So he must have been aware of the time the beer house next door to him closed.
Therefore, everything that happened to him took place at or after 12:00 midnight.

On 2nd October Packer then told Le Grand and Bachelor that he had indeed sold grapes to a man who accompanied a woman he identified as Elizabeth Stride. Le Grand and Bachelor-, known fraudsters then miraculously turn up a grapestalk in Dutfields Yard.

I previously mentioned Packer commenting on the rain and how heavy it was. He even ridiculed the couple for standing out in it for so long. Yet Stride's clothes according to Dr Blackwell were not wet when she was found.

I responded to that issue on Chris's post - the drizzle or spitting just looked worse to Packer as he was looking through windows.
I'm sure you've sat in a car and had to put the wipers on, but when you get out, you can hardly feel the rain it is so faint.
The rain just looked worse to Packer due to him looking through glass.

It was categorically stated by Dr Phillips at the Inquest on 2nd October that neither in the hands or body of Stride did he find any grapes or connection with them and he was convinced neither seed nor skin had been swallowed within many hours of her death. Now I know medical science has improved dramatically since 1888 but surely this statement must be taken very seriously. Dr Blackwell also stated he had seen no grapes nor had anyone mentioned grapes to him.

Yes, that point has been argued before, but are you aware Stride's post mortem was conducted some 30+ hours later?
Plenty of time for stomach acid to work on grape flesh, which is something like 90+% water anyway.
Did Stride spit out the skins & pips?
Do you?, I know my wife does, naturally we buy seedless grapes, but she hates the skins, they are bitter, so she uses a tissue to remove the skins from her mouth (not lady-like to spit).
Fruit stains were noticed on Stride's handkerchief - funny that.
So, if you apply a real-world application, the so-called evidence against the grapes just disappears.

Of course we must also view Packer's constant changing of story-- either the time he saw the couple(ranging from 11:30am- 12;30am), description of the man which changed quite a bit over different outlets and his story about the grapes,...

Yes, but we never did get an original statement from Packer. Every example we have was created by someone else, so his story came down to us through third party.
It's hardly fair to beat a witness up over what others have put on paper. Too many possibilities for errors.

At the end of the day Swanson said Packer changed his story, which is why they couldn't use him.
What we don't know is which 'stories' was Swanson talking about?
What Packer said to the press is the most complete version we have, it differs from the notes made by A.C.B., which also differs from the report made by Sgt. White.
Yet, we can better equate White's report with the press story.
Where A.C.B. got his "11:00" time from will forever remain a mystery.
All the evidence considered points to Packer serving Stride & Co. about midnight, and him closing up his shop about 12:30 am., after closing time.

[Wickerman]

I just skimmed through a few Packer-related pieces. If Packer saw the couple then it must have been at around 11.00 because according to witnesses it didn’t rain after 11.30 and he said that they stood in the rain for around an hour. I don’t think it an insurmountable problem that Packer said 12.30. He used pub closing as a way of estimating the time but it’s possible that he heard the bulk of the club members going home at 11.30 and assumed that they were pub punters at closing time but 11.00 gives us a bigger problem in the shape of Constable Smith who would have passed on his beat at around11.00, 11.30 and 12.00 but he only reported seeing the couple at around 12.30.
...

Hi Mike.

Clubs were subject to different rules, it was the beer house next door (No.46) that would have been subject to municipal regulations.
Packer was in a good position to notice that the beer house next door had closed (at midnight), which means everything that happened to Packer did so after midnight.

Packer's story.
It was then 10 or 15 minutes past 12 o'clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public-houses had been closed.
East London Advertiser, 6 Oct. 1888.

Police Code.
Paraphrase - (within a radius of four miles from Charring Cross)....Every person selling liquor must be licensed, but Clubs are not required to take out a license for such sale to members only, for consumption on the premises. Licensed premises must close at 12:30 every night of the week except Saturday night at which time they must close at 12:00 midnight. (p.147)

Just to confirm 'closing time'...
Spooner mentions leaving the beer house in Settles St. at closing time (midnight), he then walked down Christian St.