Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, Herlock, let me put it this way -- if they made a remake of Citizen Kane starring Abby instead of Orson Welles, instead of a sled in the final scene and the word Rosebud it would be a cap and the words peaked cap man.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree with Fishy and others. Schwarz existed and unless we can prove him wrong witnessed an assault on Stride. The idea that he went to the police and made the whole thing up is surely nonsense. He could have misinterpreted what he saw he may have embellished what he saw but he was witness to an assault in Berner Street. I still think we are trying to fit events into theories rather than looking at the eye witness evidence. Start afresh and look again. I agree something is not right here.

NW

So, Schwartz told the truth as he saw it, and yet something is not right here? Why is that?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am enjoying this discussion; we have some excellent points from all sides of the fence.

What I would say is that those who believe Schwartz, therefore believe that BS Man existed.

I think we can all agree on that particular point.

And so the question that arises from the belief that Bs man assaulted Stride, is this...

Was Bs man the man who then murdered Stride?

I ask this because there is equally NO evidence that another man came along and cut her throat between the time Schwartz claimed Bs Man attacked her circa 12.45am, to the point when she was found dead by Diemschitz circa 1am.

We quite rightly talk about "proof"

There is no proof that Schwartz lied for example.

But that also applies to the idea that there's also no proof that anyone was with Stride after she was seen being thrown to the ground by Bs man.

Therefore, I then ask this; does the belief that Bs man assaulted Stride then support the idea that he was her killer?

And If BS man was her killer, then another point occurs that I also believe we can all agree with...

Bs man was NOT the Ripper.


And so does the belief in Schwartz then by proxy cast considerable doubt that Stride was a Ripper victim?

If not, then all that's left is the unlikely possibility that Stirde was assaulted by Bs Man and then assaulted again by another man who then cut her throat.

One unlucky lady

Not forgetting that the "evidence" is that Bs man was the last person seen with Stride before she was murdered.

inventing another man arriving after Bs man who then comes along and kills her, is equally as effective as removing Schwartz's account entirely.

You can't have it both ways.

In other words, if you believe Schwartz, then based on the "proof" we have; Bs man almost certainly was her killer, because there was no "evidence" another man came along afterwards.

And so to believe Schwartz is to effectively rule out Stride as a Ripper victim.

I see your point RD. You’re saying that if BSMan killed Stride straight after the Schwartz incident then this takes away the ‘interrupted by Diemschitz’ explanation for why the ‘ripper’ didn’t mutilate Stride. Whilst I certainly accept that it’s unlikely that BSMan and Stride might have stood around in the passageway so that when he cut her throat Diemschitz arrived at around 1.00, there could have been an alternative source of interruption. For example, it was said that the side door was open…so maybe someone went to the outside loo causing the killer to flee? Or maybe he was spooked by someone just opening the door to let in some air? Or a noise from inside which led him to think that someone might have been about to come outside? Or from the cottages opposite?

I’ve always been on the fence as to whether Stride was a ripper victim or not. The problem as far as I’m concerned is that we have a gap of knowledge into which we can drop a few ‘possible’ scenarios and even the less likely ones (like BSMan fleeing after the initial contact and someone else killing Stride) can’t be dismissed no matter how unlikely we might find them. As I said in an earlier post…basically, unlikely things happen all the time.

If I was pushed to make a guess at this point in time (akin to buying a lottery ticket) I’d say that the likeliest would be that BSMan killed Stride but that he probably wasn’t the ripper. If the lottery ticket cost £10 I’d have a go….i wouldn’t want to spend much more though.

[Wickerman]

There is no evidence that exists that Schwartz either lied or was mistaken about the testimony he gave in regards to the assault on liz stride. End of discussion.

Those who wish to try and prove otherwise simply do so as opinion and speculation only , nothing more.

The evidence does not exist now, that does not mean it never existed.

No-one has satisfactorily explained why Schwartz was not requested to appear at the inquest, and then there is that police report mentioned by Swanson.
What did it conclude?

[Wickerman]

Schwartz escaped to the railway arch at about 12:45. Spooner 'escaped' into Dutfield's Yard at about 1:05, after stopping his 'pursuers' to ask them what the matter was....

Spooner stopped Schwartz's pursuers?
Spooner stopped two Jews looking for a policeman.

Funny how The Worker's Friend supposed the murder had occurred at about 12:45. Someone(s) knew more than we are led to believe.

Not necessarily, all that tells us is their source made that claim, not that it was correct.

[Wickerman]

...

...I ask this because there is equally NO evidence that another man came along and cut her throat between the time Schwartz claimed Bs Man attacked her circa 12.45am, to the point when she was found dead by Diemschitz circa 1am.

...But that also applies to the idea that there's also no proof that anyone was with Stride after she was seen being thrown to the ground by Bs man.

...If not, then all that's left is the unlikely possibility that Stirde was assaulted by Bs Man and then assaulted again by another man who then cut her throat.

...inventing another man arriving after Bs man who then comes along and kills her...

... because there was no "evidence" another man came along afterwards.

We're not inventing another man, when that man is attested to have been present before Schwartz came on the scene.
What you have is no evidence that this other man left the scene.

Those who choose to believe Schwartz, will realize he makes no mention of a couple standing on the corner (seen by James Brown at 12:45, and by Mortimer), so those same theorists are compelled to accept other people were present that Schwartz did not mention.
Which in turn removes the criticism that Parcel-man cannot have been there because Schwartz doesn't mention him.
You can't have it both ways.

[The Rookie Detective]

I see your point RD. You’re saying that if BSMan killed Stride straight after the Schwartz incident then this takes away the ‘interrupted by Diemschitz’ explanation for why the ‘ripper’ didn’t mutilate Stride.

Yes, precisely.

Schwartz's story implies that Bs Man was Stride's killer.

Otherwise...

we have the same woman being assaulted by 2 different men in the same place within just 15 minutes.

we have to invent another man arriving AND leaving without detection, between Bs man leaving and Diemschitz arriving.

we have to explain why after being attacked; Stride chooses to remain where she was, because there's no evidence she left the yard after she had arrived there.


When you combine the above, it suggests that if Bs man assaulted Stride, then it's more likely that he subsequently cut her throat after Schwartz fled.

But what does Schwartz's claim actually impact?

Well it works 4-fold...

Firstly, it gets Parcelman off the hook

Secondly, it suggests a kill time of circa 12.45am

Thirdly, it goes against the idea that the killer was interrupted.
This is on the basis that if Schwartz's presence wasn't enough to scare him off, then why we would he feel the need to flee hurriedly after Schwartz had left the scene.

and fourthly, it rules out the idea that Stride was a Ripper victim, unless of course one is to believe that the Ripper would behave like an aggressive drunk in the street and expose himself as the culprit.

Of course, there is a possibility that Schwartz was Parcelman incognito.

He kills Stride circa 12.45am in the yard out of sight from everyone, but then comes forward as a "Hungarian Jew" to invent a story of an assault on the victim.
The killer inserting himself as a so called "witness" into an investigation provides a thrill for the killer.

I am not suggesting this is the case; but it's a viable possibility nonetheless.


I personally believe that Stride was a Ripper victim murdered circa 12.55am and he timed his escape with the prior knowledge of the police beats; as in most; if not ALL the other Ripper murders.
He was disturbed and had to make his escape through the far end of the yard by scaling vertically; ergo, he never left the yard via the Berner Street exit; hence why he wasn't seen leaving.

I also believe that the "other couple" confuse the narrative and that it was actually Brown who saw the Ripper talking to Stride on the corner.
After rejecting him by telling him "no, not tonight" she walks towards the nearesr source of help; ergo, towards the side door of the club.
The killer follows her and before she can reach the door, he cuts her throat, but then hears the cart approaching and then hides in the darkness further up the yard and escapes just after Diemschitz enters the club.

Parcel man is a red herring and was seen with Stride too early to have been her killer.

Schwartz lied or was mistaken

Brown saw the Ripper just minutes before the killer follows Stride into the yard

Mortimer heard footsteps of Pc Smith and saw Goldstein but nothing more.

If Diemschitz wasn't the man who disturbed the killer, then it may have been Goldstein as he passed the entrance to the yard.
Mortimer was correct when she said he walked hurriedly, but he did so only AFTER he had passed the entrance and caught a glimpse of the killer kneeling by Stride in the dark.

Of course, all of the above is suggestion and supposition.

[c.d.]

One hand giveth and the other hand taketh away.

But now you have to explain why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

lets cut all the speculation and just look at the evidence from what the pertinent witnesses described: marshall, pc smith, schwartz, lawende and the anon church street sighting all pretty much describe the same suspect. a stout/shortish man somewhat respectably dressed with a mustache and wearing a peaked cap -both with stride and eddowes. the fact that this man was with stride for a longer period of time suggests she was not actively soliciting and probably led to his frustration and anger and the un ripper like attack in the street in front of witnesses. his fantasy sig of post mortem mutilation not fulfilled he then continued his search and got it with eddowes.

packer, mortimer and brown are all useless witnesses forget them. waste of time. packer was a liar, mortimer a useless busybody and brown saw a different couple.

Stride had just broken up with her boyfriend and seems was out looking for a new man. she was all dolled up and not jumping into the alley with the first client she could find. she met the ripper who had other plans, and after spending considerable time and probably some money on her, he got fed up with her not going to a secluded place, probably after one last attempt after pc smith passed, and he left her briefly then returned in anger (where schwartz saw him returning) and cut her throat and bolted to find more acquiescing victim.

all this talk of packer, phantom rippers etc. is an empty hole. stick with the evidence. it was peaked cap man as abberline said- " the man and his peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions i got of him. "

[DJA]

BS man was Stride's muscle in the blackmail scheme.He returned to pull her out of the passage.
After he left,Sutton who was upstairs watching events on the street,exited via the front door.
He offered cachous to Stride for her lips.The second she picked them from his outstretched hand,he made his move.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, precisely.

Schwartz's story implies that Bs Man was Stride's killer.

Otherwise...

we have the same woman being assaulted by 2 different men in the same place within just 15 minutes.

we have to invent another man arriving AND leaving without detection, between Bs man leaving and Diemschitz arriving.

I wouldn’t call it invention though RD because invention implies something underhand. We don’t know who the ripper was but we know that he existed. It’s not impossible that Stride could have been a part of this incident at around 12.45 and then BSMen left and the killer stepped in. I admit that it sounds less likely but, as I keep saying, unlikely things sometimes do happen.

we have to explain why after being attacked; Stride chooses to remain where she was, because there's no evidence she left the yard after she had arrived there.

Perfectly true. Could she have been waiting for someone after they had arranged to meet there with either Stride arriving early or the man being late.

When you combine the above, it suggests that if Bs man assaulted Stride, then it's more likely that he subsequently cut her throat after Schwartz fled.

I agree

But what does Schwartz's claim actually impact?

Well it works 4-fold...

Firstly, it gets Parcelman off the hook

Secondly, it suggests a kill time of circa 12.45am

Thirdly, it goes against the idea that the killer was interrupted.

This is on the basis that if Schwartz's presence wasn't enough to scare him off, then why we would he feel the need to flee hurriedly after Schwartz had left the scene.

and fourthly, it rules out the idea that Stride was a Ripper victim, unless of course one is to believe that the Ripper would behave like an aggressive drunk in the street and expose himself as the culprit.

This is one of the doubts that I’ve always had.

Of course, there is a possibility that Schwartz was Parcelman incognito.

He kills Stride circa 12.45am in the yard out of sight from everyone, but then comes forward as a "Hungarian Jew" to invent a story of an assault on the victim.
The killer inserting himself as a so called "witness" into an investigation provides a thrill for the killer.

I am not suggesting this is the case; but it's a viable possibility nonetheless.


I personally believe that Stride was a Ripper victim murdered circa 12.55am and he timed his escape with the prior knowledge of the police beats; as in most; if not ALL the other Ripper murders.
He was disturbed and had to make his escape through the far end of the yard by scaling vertically; ergo, he never left the yard via the Berner Street exit; hence why he wasn't seen leaving.

I also believe that the "other couple" confuse the narrative and that it was actually Brown who saw the Ripper talking to Stride on the corner.
After rejecting him by telling him "no, not tonight" she walks towards the nearesr source of help; ergo, towards the side door of the club.
The killer follows her and before she can reach the door, he cuts her throat, but then hears the cart approaching and then hides in the darkness further up the yard and escapes just after Diemschitz enters the club.

Parcel man is a red herring and was seen with Stride too early to have been her killer.

Schwartz lied or was mistaken

Brown saw the Ripper just minutes before the killer follows Stride into the yard

Mortimer heard footsteps of Pc Smith and saw Goldstein but nothing more.

If Diemschitz wasn't the man who disturbed the killer, then it may have been Goldstein as he passed the entrance to the yard.
Mortimer was correct when she said he walked hurriedly, but he did so only AFTER he had passed the entrance and caught a glimpse of the killer kneeling by Stride in the dark.

Of course, all of the above is suggestion and supposition.

We are in an impossible position RD. There’s just too much that we don’t know and will never know.

[c.d.]

We are in an impossible position RD. There’s just too much that we don’t know and will never know.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

lets cut all the speculation and just look at the evidence from what the pertinent witnesses described: marshall, pc smith, schwartz, lawende and the anon church street sighting all pretty much describe the same suspect. a stout/shortish man somewhat respectably dressed with a mustache and wearing a peaked cap...

...it was peaked cap man as abberline said- " the man and his peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions i got of him. "

A plethora of Ripper suspects - take your pick...
There he is...no wait - that's him....no, he's over there, er, let me think.....

[Abby Normal]

A plethora of Ripper suspects - take your pick...
There he is...no wait - that's him....no, he's over there, er, let me think.....

lol! but which one is also short/stout and has a dark mustache? only one-first pic second from right. thats the ripper! oh wait he only has one arm! : )

gosh i missed you wicky!

[Abby Normal]

We are in an impossible position RD. There’s just too much that we don’t know and will never know.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

c.d.

haha! forget it cd. its Casebooktown. and thanks for the welcome back. appreciated