Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Wickerman]

Another one that I’ll throw in there….we assume that the woman that Smith saw was Stride because he was a Constable and someone who is paid to be observant but how certain should we be? He was walking along a poorly lit street after all. He’d have seen quite a few people over the course of an evenings beat including couples either heading home or otherwise engaged. Would he have been able to have ID’d them all if he’d been tested? Women of the poorer classes at the time would have dressed fairly similarly I’d have thought. How unlikely would it have been for him to have seen a woman dressed similarly to Stride, with the same general build and hair colouring?

I’d suggest that there has to exist a chance, however small (possibly minute) that the woman with Parcelman wasn’t Stride.

On the issue of 'small chances', and dimly lit streets. We are told Schwartz couldn't understand English - so how did he know he was in Berner St.?

The next street over - Batty St. also has a yard that opens to the street, none of the other streets do. It is also beside a pub, as opposed to a club, but at night who's to tell the difference?
Had Schwartz seen a woman being roughed up in Batty St., in the entrance of the yard beside the pub, but heard the next day that a woman had been murdered in the yard in Berner St.
Schwartz just put two and two together, he thought the murder was the scuffle he witnessed, he just had not realized he was in Batty St., not Berner St.

The fact Schwartz account does not fit with anything said by all the other witnesses is troubling, yet many have tried to explain that fact away but to no great satisfaction.

[Sunny Delight]

On the issue of 'small chances', and dimly lit streets. We are told Schwartz couldn't understand English - so how did he know he was in Berner St.?

The next street over - Batty St. also has a yard that opens to the street, none of the other streets do. It is also beside a pub, as opposed to a club, but at night who's to tell the difference?
Had Schwartz seen a woman being roughed up in Batty St., in the entrance of the yard beside the pub, but heard the next day that a woman had been murdered in the yard in Berner St.
Schwartz just put two and two together, he thought the murder was the scuffle he witnessed, he just had not realized he was in Batty St., not Berner St.

The fact Schwartz account does not fit with anything said by all the other witnesses is troubling, yet many have tried to explain that fact away but to no great satisfaction.

I think the Police would have been very keen to ensure it was definitely Berner Street. Didn't Schwartz go to the Police with an acquantance from the Socialist club? He must have known it. I don't think he heard there was a murder in Berner Street. He probably heard of a murder near or beside the club.

I don't think it is very difficult to fit Schwartz testimony into the timeline.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can't really approach the case like that as otherwise we would have absolutely nothing to go on. Not one witness who claimed they saw a victim can be proven to be correct, unless they knew the deceased.

I’m not saying that we should cast aside witnesses Sunny. All that I’m saying is that we can’t always be 100% certain that witnesses are correct because of the human error element. I agree that PC Smith very likely saw Stride with Parcelman.

[Herlock Sholmes]

On the issue of 'small chances', and dimly lit streets. We are told Schwartz couldn't understand English - so how did he know he was in Berner St.?

The next street over - Batty St. also has a yard that opens to the street, none of the other streets do. It is also beside a pub, as opposed to a club, but at night who's to tell the difference?
Had Schwartz seen a woman being roughed up in Batty St., in the entrance of the yard beside the pub, but heard the next day that a woman had been murdered in the yard in Berner St.
Schwartz just put two and two together, he thought the murder was the scuffle he witnessed, he just had not realized he was in Batty St., not Berner St.

The fact Schwartz account does not fit with anything said by all the other witnesses is troubling, yet many have tried to explain that fact away but to no great satisfaction.

I recall that you suggested this a while ago Wick. People have made less likely errors in life so I don’t think that your suggestion can be discounted. And as I mentioned in an earlier post we don’t know what state Schwartz was in at the time. It was after midnight so it can’t be impossibly or even unlikely that he might have had a few drinks. Who’s to say that he might not have had quite a few? He could have seen an incident in a different street. He could have seen an incident a few minutes earlier in the evening.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Lewis,

I agree that the lesser time period has to be the likeliest but I that “A man touched her face…” is only ringing distant bells for me. Where is it from?

Spooner says he touched her face, and it was slightly warm. Fanny apparently sees this, and as she also says that Deimshitz was there when she arrived, that suggests that Fanny arrived after Deimshitz had done his run along Fairclough and returned with Spooner in tow. There's a news statement where she says as she came out someone says a woman has had 10" of steel stuck in her (words to that effect), which could be Eagle heading north, just after Deimshitz's return from his Fairclough search. Given estimations of how long between Deimshitz return to the club with his pony, and getting to the point where Eagle heads north are in the vicinity of 4 or 5 minutes, then her 4 minute statement could correspond to the time between hearing the pony and her arriving at the scene rather than the time between her going inside and hearing the pony and cart, with that information getting a bit garbled either in the telling or by the reporter recording what she was saying misunderstanding what interval she was referring to. If something like that happened, then we are left not knowing how long of an interval passes between her going inside and hearing the pony and cart. If we take her statement about going out shortly after hearing PC Smith go by, and accept that she did hear him, then she went out shortly after his patrol where he sees Stride and Parcelman. Since she doesn't recall seeing Stride and Parcel man, though, they must have moved on and either Stride doesn't return to the club until Fanny goes inside roughly 10 minutes later (which would be somewhere around 12:45ish) or she was killed in the interval between PC Smith's patrol and Fanny coming outside in the first place - making Brown's sighting not of Stride.

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

I agree that the lesser time period has to be the likeliest but I that “A man touched her face…” is only ringing distant bells for me. Where is it from?

I copied that from your post, which says that that came from the October 1st London Evening News. Here's the full paragraph from your post with the sentence that I quoted in bold:

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: “I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jeff and Lewis,

Take this as a sizeable from me. I really don’t know why I didn’t immediately connect that statement with Spooner?

With particular thanks to Lewis for rubbing it in by pointing out that it came from my own post.

Jeff, that’s an interesting point about the possibility that instead of Fanny’s estimation being the time between her going inside and hearing Louis it might have been an estimation of the time between her hearing Louis and her getting to the yard.

[JeffHamm]

Jeff and Lewis,

Take this as a sizeable from me. I really don’t know why I didn’t immediately connect that statement with Spooner?

With particular thanks to Lewis for rubbing it in by pointing out that it came from my own post.

Jeff, that’s an interesting point about the possibility that instead of Fanny’s estimation being the time between her going inside and hearing Louis it might have been an estimation of the time between her hearing Louis and her getting to the yard.

Hi Herlock,

It was just something that occurred to me, given Fanny appears to have arrived at the scene after Diemshitz returned from his Fairclough search. If memory serves me, and it often does not, the time between his arrival with his pony and his return from Fairclough, wouldn't be far off 4 minutes and one thought led to another. Obviously there's no way to verify such things, which is why we're just left with a collection of possibilities. The hope is that some of those possibilities fit better than others as we add more and more information and try to build a bigger picture.

- Jeff

[The Rookie Detective]

Based on Mortimer; It would seem most likely that there are 2 windows of time in which Stride could have been murdered.

12.41-12.44am

or

12.56-12.59am



Or a 3rd possibility that she was killed by Bs man - 12.44am-12.49am



In the 12.41am - 12.44am window there are a few candidates for the murderer...

Eagle
Lave
Parcel man
Marshall's man
"No, not tonight man"
Unknown man/The Ripper
Pc Smith

(Parcelman and Marshall's man possibly being the same person)


In the 12.56am - 12.59am window we have...

Diemschitz
Lave
Goldstein
"No, not tonight" man seen by Brown
Unknown man/The Ripper
Pc Smith



But added to this we have a few key questions...

1) - If Bs man assaulted Stride shortly after she was seen with Parcelman, then where did Parcelman go without being seen by Schwartz or Mortimer?

2) - If Parcelman and Marshall's man were the same person; where did he get the parcel from between being seen by Marshall and then being seen by PC Smith?

3) - If Bs Man was ahead of Schwartz as he walked south down Berner Street; where did Bs man come from if Mortimer only heard 1 man's footsteps pass her door? If Bs Man had come from the same direction as Schwartz then Mortimer should have heard 2 men pass her door within close proximity.

4) - If Mortimer did indeed hear PC Smith pass her door and she went to look outside just afterwards; why didn't she see either Eagle, Lave, Parcelman or Stride?

5) - PC Smith stated his beat took 25 to 30 minutes to complete 1 circuit. If that's the case, and he had indeed passed along Berner Street between 12.30-12.35am, then why didn't Smith arrive back in Berner Street at the same spot between 12.55am - 1.05am?
Where was Smith at the most likely kill time of 12.55am?


Lots to ponder

[New Waterloo]

I think Spooner states at the inquest that he was from 1230 till 1.00am outside the Beehive Pub which I believe was at the junction of Fairclough and Christian Street. I still think this point is remarkably close to the Board School and its junction with Berner Street, the location of Browns couple and still think these may be the same couple. I will try with maps to ascertain a rough distance between the two couples.

NW

[Wickerman]

...

But added to this we have a few key questions...

1) - If Bs man assaulted Stride shortly after she was seen with Parcelman, then where did Parcelman go without being seen by Schwartz or Mortimer?

2) - If Parcelman and Marshall's man were the same person; where did he get the parcel from between being seen by Marshall and then being seen by PC Smith?

Chris.

You are inventing a mystery where none exists.

You know where Parcel-man got his newspaper package from...

There was only one man accompanying Stride, who we know was given a package.

Why this self inflicted myopia, not just you, the whole board - what are you all afraid of?

No-one wants to acknowledge the Elephant in the room...

[Sunny Delight]

Chris.

You are inventing a mystery where none exists.

You know where Parcel-man got his newspaper package from...

There was only one man accompanying Stride, who we know was given a package.

Why this self inflicted myopia, not just you, the whole board - what are you all afraid of?

No-one wants to acknowledge the Elephant in the room...

Packer came up with his package story after PC Smith's description was widely circulated. Prior to that he had seen nothing as reported by himself and shut his shop early.

[Wickerman]

I think Spooner states at the inquest that he was from 1230 till 1.00am outside the Beehive Pub which I believe was at the junction of Fairclough and Christian Street. I still think this point is remarkably close to the Board School and its junction with Berner Street, the location of Browns couple and still think these may be the same couple. I will try with maps to ascertain a rough distance between the two couples.

NW

Here's a map of where the witnesses stood.

Green dot - Mortimer.
Red dot - Dutfields Yard.
White dot - "You'll say anything" couple.
Dark Blue - Wm. Marshall.
Purple - James Brown.
Light Blue - Spooner & his lady.
Orange - Spooner's house.

[The Rookie Detective]

Chris.

You are inventing a mystery where none exists.

You know where Parcel-man got his newspaper package from...

There was only one man accompanying Stride, who we know was given a package.

Why this self inflicted myopia, not just you, the whole board - what are you all afraid of?

No-one wants to acknowledge the Elephant in the room...

Well if for some reason the Packer story is true; at least we can all forget about Schwartz and his claiming he witnessed an assault on Stride.

The couple who Packer claimed bought the grapes stood for over half an hour almost opposite his shop which as we know was situated between the murder site and the junction with Faircloth Street.
Packer's shop faced the Board School on the other side of the road.
This would indicate that the couple Packer spoke of were standing very close to the couple that Brown saw and the couple that Mortimer spoke to.

Lot's of couples standing by the board school

Thanks to Packer, we can show that Schwartz lied and that Bs Man and Pipeman never existed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here's a map of where the witnesses stood.

Green dot - Mortimer.
Red dot - Dutfields Yard.
White dot - "You'll say anything" couple.
Dark Blue - Wm. Marshall.
Purple - James Brown.
Light Blue - Spooner & his lady.
Orange - Spooner's house.

Hi Wick,

There are 9 dots on the map. What are the two unnamed ones? The dots both look grey. One is by the junction of Berner and Fairclough Streets. The other is at the junction of Brunswick and Fairclough Streets.