Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Wickerman]

Packer came up with his package story after PC Smith's description was widely circulated. Prior to that he had seen nothing as reported by himself and shut his shop early.

The description of PC Smiths suspect was 'widely circulated' on 6th Oct., Packer gave his story on the 4th.
(I thought something was published concerning suspect descriptions on the 1st, but I can't access Press Reports)

Also, your implication does not work because the description given by Packer was different to what was 'widely circulated'.
If Packer was 'inspired' then it's only natural he would give the same description - he didn't.

Packer (statement to police) - A young man 25-30, about 5ft 7in, long black 'frock' coat, soft felt hat, broad shoulders.

PC Smith - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

Packer didn't want to get involved, at first - a common reaction with some witnesses, any policeman involved in investigations will tell you that.
Witnesses change their mind.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick,

There are 9 dots on the map. What are the two unnamed ones? The dots both look grey. One is by the junction of Berner and Fairclough Streets. The other is at the junction of Brunswick and Fairclough Streets.

Grey dots are water hydrant locations - they are part of the map, not my doing

[The Rookie Detective]

Are you able to add a dot to where Packer said he saw the couple who bought grapes standing for over half an hour?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fanny Mortimer says that she was on her doorstep for nearly the whole time between 12.30-1.00 so let’s assume that she was being honest but not entirely accurate? Maybe while she was on her doorstep she briefly went back inside once or twice. Maybe her husband asked her a question or she wanted to tell him something or she needed the loo (all perfectly normal things) so she went back inside for a few seconds or a minute or two. I can’t see anything unusual or unbelievable about that kind of scenario.

- So maybe PC. Smith passed by close to 12.30 and the couple left the scene just after that then Fanny came onto her doorstep at around 12.31. Then maybe she stayed in place for around 8 or 9 minutes before her husband calls he for something so she pushes the door closed, sees what her husband wanted her for, then returned to her doorstep a minute or so later. During her time indoors Eagle returned unseen. Fanny then remained on her doorstep for another 5 minutes before going back inside to do something (maybe visit the loo?) She stayed inside for a couple of minutes during which time the Schwartz incident occurred. Then she went back onto her doorstep at 12.46/7. She stayed for around 8 minutes during which time Goldstein passed. She then went back in for what she believed would be the final time that night at around 12.55. She heard Diemschitz at 1.00 and the commotion a couple of minutes later.

So..

She missed seeing Eagle and the Schwartz incident.

She had spent 21 or 22 minutes of 30 minutes on her doorstep so it wouldn’t have been inaccurate for her to claim to have been on her doorstep for most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00. Her time indoors might have seem even shorter to her.

Fanny was never asked to detail when she was or wasn’t on her doorstep. So we don’t know.


Finally, I can already hear someone saying “well you’re conveniently having Fanny ducking indoors to explain her not seeing something.” And yes I am, but I’m not suggesting anything outrageous. Nothing I’ve suggested is remotely abnormal and it could explain why Fanny felt that she’d been on her doorstep for most of that 30 minutes and why she saw nothing. Can anyone prove that the above didn’t occur? Or something similar?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Grey dots are water hydrant locations - they are part of the map, not my doing

And not undercover officers disguised as water hydrants?

[Wickerman]

Well if for some reason the Packer story is true; at least we can all forget about Schwartz and his claiming he witnessed an assault on Stride.

The couple who Packer claimed bought the grapes stood for over half an hour almost opposite his shop which as we know was situated between the murder site and the junction with Faircloth Street.
Packer's shop faced the Board School on the other side of the road.
This would indicate that the couple Packer spoke of were standing very close to the couple that Brown saw and the couple that Mortimer spoke to.

Lot's of couples standing by the board school

Thanks to Packer, we can show that Schwartz lied and that Bs Man and Pipeman never existed.

Not really, Packer's story only runs from roughly 11:45 to 12:30, when he shut up his shop, and he said Stride & her man left his shop to stand opposite, then came back across towards the club.
So he is the last witness to place Parcel-man with Stride in front of the club.
Schwartz came on the scene 10-15 mins later.

[Wickerman]

The description of PC Smiths suspect was 'widely circulated' on 6th Oct., Packer gave his story on the 4th.
(I thought something was published concerning suspect descriptions on the 1st, but I can't access Press Reports)

Daily News, 1 Oct.
A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

The above was published just days before Packer gave his version.
So, if he is lying, why didn't he give the same description?

[The Rookie Detective]

Not really, Packer's story only runs from roughly 11:45 to 12:30, when he shut up his shop, and he said Stride & her man left his shop to stand opposite, then came back across towards the club.
So he is the last witness to place Parcel-man with Stride in front of the club.
Schwartz came on the scene 10-15 mins later.

If Packer stated he saw the couple between 11.45pm to 12.30am, then could they be the same pair seen by Marshall circa 11.45pm just south of Faircloth Street?

[The Rookie Detective]

There is one thing that relates to the murder weapon that I find particularly interesting.

The man who cut Stride's throat and nearly decapitated her with one deep hooked cut; clearly had an intent to kill that morning.

I would imagine that a lot of men carried a pocket knife or a knife with a relatively short blade that could stab as opposed to the stab, hook, cut and slice motion required for an attempt to decapitate.

in other words; if her killer was your average street thug or criminal; then it's far morely likely that Stride would have been stabbed with a generic knife or stabbing weapon.

For the killer to have carried such a formidable weapon at that hour of the day goes a long way to promote a premeditated and planned kill and goes against the idea that Stride was the victim of a random street attack.

The weapon used is akin to a Ripper kill

[Sunny Delight]

The description of PC Smiths suspect was 'widely circulated' on 6th Oct., Packer gave his story on the 4th.
(I thought something was published concerning suspect descriptions on the 1st, but I can't access Press Reports)

Also, your implication does not work because the description given by Packer was different to what was 'widely circulated'.
If Packer was 'inspired' then it's only natural he would give the same description - he didn't.

Packer (statement to police) - A young man 25-30, about 5ft 7in, long black 'frock' coat, soft felt hat, broad shoulders.

PC Smith - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

Packer didn't want to get involved, at first - a common reaction with some witnesses, any policeman involved in investigations will tell you that.
Witnesses change their mind.

Packer was either a Walter Mitty or someone who was used by the Private Detectives- known fraudsters. Any serious student of the case dismisses Packer. Sugden literally demolished his account in his book which is by far the best on the subject. The chain of events is laid out in black and white and is indisputable.

[Sunny Delight]

Not really, Packer's story only runs from roughly 11:45 to 12:30, when he shut up his shop, and he said Stride & her man left his shop to stand opposite, then came back across towards the club.
So he is the last witness to place Parcel-man with Stride in front of the club.
Schwartz came on the scene 10-15 mins later.

Packer also said he closed because it was raining incessantly. He even remarked how the couple were being soaked and how silly they were to be standing in the rain which was so heavy. Yet Stride"s clothes were not wet when she was found.

He also gave 3 separate times to different people. Sgt White he originally gave half 11, Le Grand and Bachelor 11:45am and then 12:15am. The description of the man went from 35 to 25 within a few statements. He initially said he closed early and retired to bed. Then he didn't retire the time he said he had but one hour later. He then had more fantastical stories in the papers a few weeks later, one where the murderer escaped on a tram and another with an American.

How can you take this man seriously?

[Lewis C]

Jeff and Lewis,

Take this as a sizeable from me. I really don’t know why I didn’t immediately connect that statement with Spooner?

With particular thanks to Lewis for rubbing it in by pointing out that it came from my own post.

Jeff, that’s an interesting point about the possibility that instead of Fanny’s estimation being the time between her going inside and hearing Louis it might have been an estimation of the time between her hearing Louis and her getting to the yard.

That's OK Herlock, I sometimes have moments like that too.

[Lewis C]

1) - If Bs man assaulted Stride shortly after she was seen with Parcelman, then where did Parcelman go without being seen by Schwartz or Mortimer?

We could just as easily ask where Parcelman went without being seen by Mortimer if BS man hadn't assaulted Stride.

4) - If Mortimer did indeed hear PC Smith pass her door and she went to look outside just afterwards; why didn't she see either Eagle, Lave, Parcelman or Stride?

It's not clear what "just afterwards" means, and it may have been longer than what we would think. I do think that Eagle was probably back in the Club by the time Fanny came to her door.

[Wickerman]

If Packer stated he saw the couple between 11.45pm to 12.30am, then could they be the same pair seen by Marshall circa 11.45pm just south of Faircloth Street?

The couple seen by Marshall walked down Berner St. - "They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street."
This sighting was between 11:30 - 12:00, but Stride was at the Bricklayers Arms in Settles St. about 11:00 pm.

[Wickerman]

Packer was either a Walter Mitty or someone who was used by the Private Detectives- known fraudsters. Any serious student of the case dismisses Packer. Sugden literally demolished his account in his book which is by far the best on the subject. The chain of events is laid out in black and white and is indisputable.

There isn't anything that is indisputable, but then again, I'm obviously not a serious student of the case.