Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think it’s also worth considering that Schwartz might just have been mistaken on timing. He was going home in the early hours so who’s to say that he hadn’t had a drink or two or ten. He goes to bed, then finds out about the murder and recalls seeing an incident. He may not have recalled the exact time but he’s told that the murder would have occurred at around 12.45. He thinks “yeah, it was probably around 12.45 that I passed.” So he’s convinced himself of the time. But what if he’d seen an incident that occurred not long before 12.30?

I don’t think that it can be ruled out.

[The Rookie Detective]

Somewhat conveniently; Schwartz always takes precedence and is the last to have his timings moved.

Brown was around 12.45am
Mortimer was around 12.45am- 12.55am
There was a couple of the corner seen by Brown and mentioned by Mortimer.
Schwartz was around 12.45am

So we have 5 different people within EITHER visual or audible vicinity of the murder site.

Brown sees a couple on the corner
Mortimer refers to a couple on the corner
Schwartz sees Bs man, Pipeman, and the victim being assaulted around the same time as Brown, Mortimer and the couple are within that same proximity.

Bs man assaults Stride around 12.45am

Brown doesn't see or hear Schwartz or Bs Man, or see or hear the assault
Mortimer doesn't see or hear Schwartz or Bs Man, or see or hear the assault
The couple seen by Brown and mentioned by Mortimer do not see or hear the assault.
Schwartz comes forward some time after both Brown and Mortimer give their respective statements; which appear in the initial newspaper reports on the murder.

Brown and Mortimer can be accounted for in terms of their respective addresses, whilst Schwartz remains an anomaly in that sense.

The couple seen on the corner and the timings given by Brown and Mortimer respectively support each other.

If anyone can explain why Brown, Mortimer and the other couple on the corner all failed to witness any audible or visual assault on Stride AND not see or hear Schwartz, Bs man or Pipe man... then I would be most impressed.

Nobody sees where Parcel man goes, but he has to be gone by the time Mortimer is at her door AND by the time Schwartz sees Bs man.

We already know that Parcel man and Bs man have completely different appearances.


I know that the majority of people support Schwartz and I can understand that because the idea of change or challenging the status quo is particularly uncomfortable.

What i would say is that the respective timings for each of the alleged witnesses is relative to each individual who gave a statement at the time.

By insisting that Schwartz is the only witness who can't be challenged or questioned in terms of his timings or the assault he was said to have witnessed, it automatically means we need to alter timings for Mortimer, Brown, and the other couple on the corner, all of whom could not have been where they said they were at the times they stated.

If the couple on the corner were not there and Mortimer lied or was incorrect about her timings; then I could see where Schwartz's story may just squeeze in.

But for Brown, Mortimer and the other couple to have been within audible or visual proximity of the alleged assault carried out by Bs Man, and yet STILL not see or hear anything OR anyone that Schwartz claimed he saw and heard; tells you all you need to know about the validity of Schwartz's story.

The fact that nothing Schwartz said he saw or heard can be verified by any other witness whatsoever, is also rather odd.

Whereas witnesses like Mortimer, Brown, Eagle etc.. give accounts that require no time alterations; just for the sake of helping Schwartz's story to fit in.

I have yet to see a chronological timeline scenario whereby Schwartz's witnessing of Bs man is given the same time tweaking treatment so that other witnesses statements can fit in.

One rule for Schwartz the theatrical "Jew" who gave a false address, came forward late, didn't appear at the inquest and remains a ghost 136 years later.
...And one rule for the likes of Pc Smith, Mortimer, Brown, Eagle etc... who can all be traced and gave initial statements that all worked without the need for time tweaks.

It's almost as though nothing Schwartz said actually even happened.

Odd indeed

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you are going to insist on the times remaining as stated RD then all conversation on this subject is over because events cannot be reconciled with the given times. I don’t think that anyone would dispute that. So either the timings weren’t synchronised (something that we know happens even today with all of our technology) or there was some kind of cover-up/plot. As we are dealing with the real world then overwhelmingly the likeliest option is that the timings weren’t coordinated. I genuinely, honestly don’t understand why you find this remotely mysterious. To me this is completely obvious. I’ve seen at least 6 different timelines that all work since we have been discussing this murder on various threads.

On the question of timings we have:

PC Smith

Fanny Mortimer

Joseph Lave

Morris Eagle

Israel Schwartz

PC Lamb

Louis Diemschitz


All of these witnesses relied on different clocks for their timings. Some of them use the word ‘about’ so they were estimating. Why would anyone insist on sticking to an estimated time?

Somewhere on one of the other threads I did a bit of an experiment when I had family visitors. We took times from (I can’t remember the exact detail but I won’t be far off) around 5 or 6 phones, a hi-fi clock, two wall clocks, a wrist watch, an iPad clock and the clock on a microwave. In 2024 with modern tech I got a range of 8 minutes. Now roll that back 136 years and consider that, added to that, some people were talking about times that occurred hours earlier so they were reliant on memory too as well as unsynchronised clocks.

Then you have people giving a time based on them estimating a period of time between when they saw a clock saying x o’clock to when an event occurred. How can we suggest that these times are so accurate that if two people said they were at a location at 12.30 then they must have seen each other and so we’re lying when thy said that they hadn’t?


The timings that we have are close to useless. They are little more than very rough guides.

[Sunny Delight]

I think it’s also worth considering that Schwartz might just have been mistaken on timing. He was going home in the early hours so who’s to say that he hadn’t had a drink or two or ten. He goes to bed, then finds out about the murder and recalls seeing an incident. He may not have recalled the exact time but he’s told that the murder would have occurred at around 12.45. He thinks “yeah, it was probably around 12.45 that I passed.” So he’s convinced himself of the time. But what if he’d seen an incident that occurred not long before 12.30?

I don’t think that it can be ruled out.

This is then stepping into territory of essentially we can't really rule anything out. There is no evidence Schwartz was drinking. We don't know how Schwartz fixed the time but he said it was a quarter to one. Now he may have been a few minutes out- or maybe he was spot on. We can't rule anything out as we can't test our theories. But the liklihood is that Schwartz was in Berner Street around the time he said he was.

If he had seen the attack at 12:30 then that would transform our thinking of that night. It would mean that Schwartz witnessed an attack at 12:30- when PC Smith sees Stride at about 12:35 she is now with a different man carrying a parcel. She has recovered from the attack.Which then means this man is the prime suspect.

If we then take Mortimer going to her door after the measured footsteps of a Policeman then the man with the Parcel and Stride are not on the street just after 12:35am. They are now I assume in Dutfields Yard. Eagle returns about this time but he doesn't see anyone or anything in the yard but concedes it was dark. Mortimer also doesn't see him but 30 seconds could account for that. Mortimer is then at her door for a period whilst Parcel Man and Stride are in Dutfield's Yard?

I put a timeline on an earlier page and I think it is worth reposting as I genuinely believe it is a very reasonable working of the statements given.

PC Smith passes Stride and Parcel Man at exactly 12,:35am. They are standing opposite Dutfields Yard at the other side of the street.

Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave arrive close to 12:40 at the club.

Israel Schwartz and BS man come down Berner Street at 12:44/45. The altercation happens with Stride who is now standing in Dutfields Yard's entrance. It is over in 30 seconds to a minute. Stride is killed immediately afterwards.

Mortimer comes to her door after hearing BS man pass at 12:47/48am. Schwartz placed 4 people on the street. We know the direction Schwartz and Pipeman went. We know Liz Stride was found dead at the same spot 10 minutes later. The only unaccounted for man is BS man who in my estimation walked past Mortimer's door just before she came to it.

The couple she speaks to who had been at the Board School roughly the same time- maybe closer to 12:49/50am.

James Brown passes them on the way back from getting supper at 12:50am. This means they just arrived at the spot.

Fanny Mortimer still at her door witnesses Leon Goldstein passing Berner Street at 12:55am. He is the only man she saw in the ten minute period at her door. She goes inside.

Louis Diemshutz finds Elizabeth Strides body at 1am.

[Lewis C]

Somewhat conveniently; Schwartz always takes precedence and is the last to have his timings moved.

By insisting that Schwartz is the only witness who can't be challenged or questioned in terms of his timings or the assault he was said to have witnessed, it automatically means we need to alter timings for Mortimer, Brown, and the other couple on the corner, all of whom could not have been where they said they were at the times they stated.

If the couple on the corner were not there and Mortimer lied or was incorrect about her timings; then I could see where Schwartz's story may just squeeze in.

But for Brown, Mortimer and the other couple to have been within audible or visual proximity of the alleged assault carried out by Bs Man, and yet STILL not see or hear anything OR anyone that Schwartz claimed he saw and heard; tells you all you need to know about the validity of Schwartz's story.

The fact that nothing Schwartz said he saw or heard can be verified by any other witness whatsoever, is also rather odd.

Whereas witnesses like Mortimer, Brown, Eagle etc.. give accounts that require no time alterations; just for the sake of helping Schwartz's story to fit in.

I have yet to see a chronological timeline scenario whereby Schwartz's witnessing of Bs man is given the same time tweaking treatment so that other witnesses statements can fit in.

One rule for Schwartz the theatrical "Jew" who gave a false address, came forward late, didn't appear at the inquest and remains a ghost 136 years later.
...And one rule for the likes of Pc Smith, Mortimer, Brown, Eagle etc... who can all be traced and gave initial statements that all worked without the need for time tweaks.

It's almost as though nothing Schwartz said actually even happened.

Odd indeed

Hi RD,

I don't recall anyone saying that Schwartz' times take precedence over others or that the incident he saw had to have happened at exactly 12:45. In fact, in the post that Herlock made immediately before you said this, he said that what Schwartz saw might have been shortly before 12:30. The point is that all of the given times are estimates, and I think that everyone that understands this will agree that that's just as true for Schwartz as for everyone else. Not that much adjusting of stated times is required anyway. See Sunny Delight's recent timeline, where I believe every adjustment that he made is less than 5 minutes.

One could make a rather long list of things that witnesses have said in this case that can't be verified by any other witness.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is then stepping into territory of essentially we can't really rule anything out. There is no evidence Schwartz was drinking. We don't know how Schwartz fixed the time but he said it was a quarter to one. Now he may have been a few minutes out- or maybe he was spot on. We can't rule anything out as we can't test our theories. But the liklihood is that Schwartz was in Berner Street around the time he said he was.

If he had seen the attack at 12:30 then that would transform our thinking of that night. It would mean that Schwartz witnessed an attack at 12:30- when PC Smith sees Stride at about 12:35 she is now with a different man carrying a parcel. She has recovered from the attack.Which then means this man is the prime suspect.

The attack that Schwartz saw might have been on a woman that wasn’t Stride. As this woman was in a tussle with a man that had shouted “Lipski” then it’s likely that Schwartz would have only seen the woman very briefly and in poor light. He would hardly have stood staring.

If we then take Mortimer going to her door after the measured footsteps of a Policeman then the man with the Parcel and Stride are not on the street just after 12:35am. They are now I assume in Dutfields Yard.

Or they have walked on to the end of the street and were now standing around the corner in Fairclough Street. Or they had moved off somewhere else…further along Berner Street for eg.

Eagle returns about this time but he doesn't see anyone or anything in the yard but concedes it was dark. Mortimer also doesn't see him but 30 seconds could account for that. Mortimer is then at her door for a period whilst Parcel Man and Stride are in Dutfield's Yard?

I don’t see any need for them to be in the yard. I think it unlikely imo.

I put a timeline on an earlier page and I think it is worth reposting as I genuinely believe it is a very reasonable working of the statements given.

PC Smith passes Stride and Parcel Man at exactly 12,:35am. They are standing opposite Dutfields Yard at the other side of the street.

Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave arrive close to 12:40 at the club.

Israel Schwartz and BS man come down Berner Street at 12:44/45. The altercation happens with Stride who is now standing in Dutfields Yard's entrance. It is over in 30 seconds to a minute. Stride is killed immediately afterwards.

Mortimer comes to her door after hearing BS man pass at 12:47/48am. Schwartz placed 4 people on the street. We know the direction Schwartz and Pipeman went. We know Liz Stride was found dead at the same spot 10 minutes later. The only unaccounted for man is BS man who in my estimation walked past Mortimer's door just before she came to it.

The couple she speaks to who had been at the Board School roughly the same time- maybe closer to 12:49/50am.

James Brown passes them on the way back from getting supper at 12:50am. This means they just arrived at the spot.

Fanny Mortimer still at her door witnesses Leon Goldstein passing Berner Street at 12:55am. He is the only man she saw in the ten minute period at her door. She goes inside.

Louis Diemshutz finds Elizabeth Strides body at 1am.

Or, Stride and Parcelman move on. Another couple arrive and stand just around the corner where Brown sees them (but Mortimer doesn’t) then they move on (they later speak to Mortimer) After they move on Stride returns alone walking north on Berner Street on the same side as the club. BS man comes from the opposite direction and they meet at the gates. The incident occurs.

[The Rookie Detective]

The point is that when the alleged assault on Stride occurred circa 12.45am, the following could not have been either in the street or within audible proximity....

Eagle - yes, he's gone around 12.40am

Lave - Unconfirmed exactly when and for how long he was outside, but he does go as far as the street.

Mortimer - circa 12.45am - 12.55am

Brown - circa 12.45am

the other couple- seen by Brown circa 12.45am

So in order for Bs man, Pipeman and Schwartz to occupy that space and time...ALL of the above have to be out of the way.

Whoever the couple were on the corner, they didn't see or hear Pipeman, Bs Man, Schwartz or the actual assault on Stride.

So, if we keep Schwartz circa 12.45am, then the couple seen by Brown AND Brown himself could NOT have been there when Brown said he saw them circa 12.45am.

Ultimately, Schwartz's statement is intended to imply that BS man was the man who as at least initiated the murder of Stride.

Bs man's public behaviour in Berner Street, is as far from a Ripper kill as we can get.

The issue is that Schwartz paints a picture of a public disturbance and assault occurring; whereas the man who cut her throat did so in relative darkness and SILENCE.

The only way that Stride could have been a Ripper victim is if the couple who were seen on the corner by Brown were actually Stride and the Ripper.
After rejecting him and said rejection being heard by Brown as he passes them, the Ripper then follows her into the yard as she goes to walk away and cuts her throat just before Goldstien passes the yard. Had Goldstein have looked into the yard instead of up at the club, he may have seen the Ripper in the yard.
The Ripper then leaves the yard circa 12.57am because of Goldstein having nearly seen him in the act.

He leaves the yard just after Mortimer goes back inside and just before Diemschitz arrives

An approximate kill time of 12.57am

It just requires Stride to have recovered physically after having been assaulted and then been accosted again on the corner of the street by the Ripper (witnessed by Brown) within the space of 10 minutes or so.

Rotten luck there