Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

RD,

Firstly Brown said this:

“[Coroner] Did you see enough to make you certain that the deceased was the woman? - I am almost certain.“

Even people that are certain can be mistaken and Brown wasn’t certain so we have to admit the possibility that the woman that he’d seen wasn’t Stride.

Then you say:

. Well it shows that James Brown was mistaken with his 12.45am timing of when he claimed he saw Stride

I may get accused of nitpicking but that’s not what Brown actually said. He said:

“I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.”

He was estimating the time. The Schwartz incident from the second that BS man first accosted the woman to the moment Schwartz fled the street would have occurred over a matter of mere seconds.

If we are to take the approach that all of these times are spot on then, for consistency, we would have to accept that either PC Long or DC Halse was a liar because according to them they both passed along Goulston Street at the same time and yet they didn’t see each other. Or do we take the reasonable approach that the likelier explanation was that their times were slightly out?

It also shows that Mortimer was wrong with her timing that she was said to be at her door

Mrs Mortimer herself appeared not to know when she was on her doorstep and when she was indoors. At best she might have spent a third of the half an hour indoors and very possibly longer.

There is no need to adjust times. Claiming that these times should be taken literally is a far greater crime against reason than it is to make an allowances. Without making time allowances we are whistling in the dark.

The simplest answer is the obvious one. Israel Schwartz walked along Berner Street and saw a man accost a woman outside the club. He past, got shouted at by the assailant and scarpered. The whole thing to around 20 or 30 seconds and no one else was around to see or hear it. Eagle and Lave were inside the club. Fanny was in her house. Brown had returned from the shop and was on his way home.

We don’t need witnesses pretending to be present when they weren’t for no reason. Especially when placing themselves at the scene of a knife murder with absolutely no one to assure the police that he hadn’t killed Stride. It makes no sense. A 20 or 30 second incident being unseen happens millions of times across the world every day.

[The Rookie Detective]

We know Mortimer couldn't have been at her door at 12.45am because she would have at least HEARD the shout of "Lipski!" in an otherwise relatively quiet street.

Try shouting Lipski (as I just did) as you think the B.S. man would have done. My results show it just wasn't that loud. You want us to assume it mimicked Marlon Brando in A Streetcar Named Desire...."STELLA!!!!!! We have no idea how loud it might have been.

It also shows that IF Bs Man wasn't the killer; that after the 12.45am assault, Stride spent some time in the yard doing potentially anything...except looking or calling for help from having been attacked. Between being assaulted at 12.45am to being found murdered at 1am, Stride chose not to do anything expect perhaps to suck on a cachou.

A reasonable response if it was just a little street hassle and nothing more.

Loyalty to Schwartz is one of the key reasons why the Stride murder has failed to progress anywhere in 136 years.

What exactly do you mean by "loyalty?" I accept his story (with a grain of salt) due to the language problems but I haven't made him the fourth member of the trinity. And doesn't your opinion of Mortimer border on "loyalty?" Is she was away from her door for just a few minutes she could have missed the whole thing.

c.d.

Ah, but its not Mortimer that's the key; its the combination of Mortimer, Brown, the other couple on the corner (seen by Brown and spoken about by Mortimer) and at least 2 individuals sitting downstairs in the club located on the yard side of the building who hears nothing whatsoever (allegedly)

It's also the translation of Bs Man shouting "Lipski"
The emphasis being on the word "shout"

We know that Schwartz understood the term 'Shout' because he said that Stride did it 3 times, but "not very loudly."
So Schwartz understand the concept of audibility and volume and yet he doesn't apply the term "not very loudly" to the man who yelled "Lipski" towards his general direction.
On that basis it would be reasonable to assume that Bs Man said the word "Lipski" loud and stern enough for Schwartz to realise he ought to run away.

Now if Mortimer came out at 12.47am and Brown walked past at 12.49am, then of course, the assault could have indeed taken place at 12.45am.

But that's precisely my point.

We can only fit the 12.45am for Schwartz IF we delay Mortimer, delay Brown and forget about the other couple who inexplicably heard and saw nothing.

Now for the sake of balance, Mortimer doesn't mention seeing Brown walk laterally across the end of the Street, and so on would expect Mortimer to have seen Brown at 12.45am if she was at her door at that time.

It therefore seems more likely that Brown had passed before Mortimer was at her door.

That could have happened between 12.44am and 12.46am respectively; but by extending that parameter by more than 2 or 3 minutes only serves as a means of manipulation to fit everything in, regardless of respective time variations between different individuals present at the time.

For Schwartz to be believed we can be certain that the indicate occurred either just before Mortimer got to her door, or just after she went indoors circa 12.55am. But the latter time would imply that either BS Man or Goldstein were the killer.
The reason for believing that the assault occurred before Mortimer was at her door, supports the idea that either Bs man wasn't the killer OR he was and the murder happened circa 12.45am instead.

The 12.45am kill time virtually rules out the killer being the Ripper because it eludes to the idea that the Ripper would of had more time.

For Stride to be considered an authentic Ripper victim, only a later kill time works because the Ripper was evidently interrupted and had to flee to evade capture.

Of course, to throw a curve ball... shortly before the murder of MJK, it was reported that a couple were seen talking with her in the street.

The idea that a couple were standing on the corner by the Board School the entire time and heard or saw nothing whatsoever, is also particularly suspect in itself.

Nichols was also killed yards from the Bucks Row Board School

What if the Ripper was in fact...a couple?

[c.d.]

t's also the translation of Bs Man shouting "Lipski"
The emphasis being on the word "shout"

But again, we don't know exactly how loud it was. And I don't think it was just a shout that scared off Schwartz. I think the B.S. man must have been looking at him in a confrontational manner with an accompanying gesture as if to say "hey, you want some of this?"

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Let's imagine that Schwartz's timings were accurate and an assault on Stirde occurred around 12.45am.

What does that do for everyone else?

Well it shows that James Brown was mistaken with his 12.45am timing of when he claimed he saw Stride say to a man "No, not tonight."

It also shows that Mortimer was wrong with her timing that she was said to be at her door. The approximate 10 minite time frame running from 12.45am - 12.55am when it was claimed the street was quiet and nobody was seen by Mortimer either entering or leaving the yard in which Stride was found murdered.
We know Mortimer couldn't have been at her door at 12.45am because she would have at least HEARD the shout of "Lipski!" in an otherwise relatively quiet street.

It also shows that IF Bs Man wasn't the killer; that after the 12.45am assault, Stride spent some time in the yard doing potentially anything...except looking or calling for help from having been attacked.
Between being assaulted at 12.45am to being found murdered at 1am, Stride chose not to do anything expect perhaps to suck on a cachou.

It also shows that the other couple on the corner of the board school mentioned by Mortimer, could not have been on the corner at 12.45am when and where Brown also saw a couple, because neither the other couple, Brown or Mortimer heard the shout of "Lipski!" or saw Schwartz, the inxoticated BS man or even Pipeman making an appearance from the approximate location of the Beerhouse on the corner, that would have been closed at the time of the assault (12.30am closing time for Beerhouses)

So with Schwartz's statement we can see that Mortimer, Brown and the other couple standing by the Board School could not have been either in the street, observing the street, or within earshot of a violent man shouting "Lipski" across the street.

However...

Is it not peculiar that when we omit Schwartz's story entirely (as we have with Packer) we then have a sequence of events that requires no time adjustments to make it all fit together.

I find it bizarre that the last person to have their times adjusted to fit...is Schwartz.

Why is that?

We either need to move the timings for 4 people, possibly 5 if we include Lave

Or we tweak the timing for just 1 person in Schwartz.

Its astonishing how there are those who choose to favour Schwartz over Brown and Mortimer.

But the fact is that Brown and Mortimer can be accounted for in that they both lived within close proximity to the murder site.

Whereas Schwartz...was a ghost with theatrical appearance.

Sometimes the simplest answers are the correct ones.

Of all the witnesses, its the anonymous and still unidentified witness whose timings and statement counters other multiple witnesses, including of course any of those located downstairs in the club who claimed they heard nothing...not even a man shout "Lipski!"

Loyalty to Schwartz is one of the key reasons why the Stride murder has failed to progress anywhere in 136 years.

If Schwartz was accurate then even by moving everyone else by a minute or two means there is no overlap. Brown stated he went to the Chandler shop around quarter to one. Mortimer said she was at her door around ten minutes when she saw Leon Goldstein at around 12:55am. The couple Mortimer spoke to said they were at the Board School before and after the murder. But Mortimer stated the murder must have taken place between 12:55am and 1am when she went inside. Otherwise she would have seen everything. She didn't seem to include the possibility that Stride was killed 15minutes earlier. And what was more someone had seen a man struggle with her and use a degree of force spinning her around and throwing her to the floor.

PC Smith passes Stride and Parcel Man at exactly 12,:35am. They are standing opposite Dutfields Yard at the other side of the street.

Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave arrive close to 12:40 at the club.

Israel Schwartz and BS man come down Berner Street at 12:44/45. The altercation happens with Stride who is now standing in Dutfields Yard's entrance. It is over in 30 seconds to a minute. Stride is killed immediately afterwards.

Mortimer comes to her door after hearing BS man pass at 12:47/48am. Schwartz placed 4 people on the street. We know the direction Schwartz and Pipeman went. We know Liz Stride was found dead at the same spot 10 minutes later. The only unaccounted for man is BS man who in my estimation walked past Mortimer's door just before she came to it.

The couple she speaks to who had been at the Board School roughly the same time- maybe closer to 12:49/50am.

James Brown passes them on the way to get supper at 12:50am

Fanny Mortimer still at her door witnesses Leon Goldstein passing Berner Street at 12:55am. He is the only man she saw in the ten minute period at her door. She goes inside.

Louis Diemshutz finds Elizabeth Strides body at 1am.

I think that is a reasonable timeline.

[Herlock Sholmes]

t's also the translation of Bs Man shouting "Lipski"
The emphasis being on the word "shout"

But again, we don't know exactly how loud it was. And I don't think it was just a shout that scared off Schwartz. I think the B.S. man must have been looking at him in a confrontational manner with an accompanying gesture as if to say "hey, you want some of this?"

c.d.

I agree. There are some other factors to consider. BS man and Schwartz weren’t far away from each other. The statement might have been shouted in the same tone that someone might sarcastically have said “why don’t you take a picture?” to someone being nosey? Maybe the incident was more like a bit of drunken horseplay which didn’t merit an angry shout but the non-English speaking Schwartz didn’t understand what was being said and so misunderstood the meaning. Also it was only one, isolated word. These can easily be missed. And as I’ve mentioned before, as far as Fanny is concerned, when the incident occurred we don’t know which part of the house she was in over that short period of time. Maybe she was in a room at the rear of the house? Maybe she’d gone to the outside loo? Maybe her husband was talking to her at the time?

[New Waterloo]

I think Herlock is spot on with the idea of just putting aside exact timings and looking at all of the evidence first as it were.

Sunny Delight has put together a very good suggestion as to what happened.

I remain uncomfortable about the couple near the Board School. I think they did exist. Mortimer may have got the information about them second hand or spoke direct in any case it would appear from the fact that they were there after the event that they were not Stride and Parcelman. Who were they. Was it Spooner and his girlfriend. He seems a bit muddled with his timing and later wad convicted of an assault in slightly similar circumstances. He could have lied about his whereabouts earlier with his girlfriend. Will have to look at his statement again.

Also where did Parceman go before all this kicked off

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

I think Herlock is spot on with the idea of just putting aside exact timings and looking at all of the evidence first as it were.

Sunny Delight has put together a very good suggestion as to what happened.

I remain uncomfortable about the couple near the Board School. I think they did exist. Mortimer may have got the information about them second hand or spoke direct in any case it would appear from the fact that they were there after the event that they were not Stride and Parcelman. Who were they. Was it Spooner and his girlfriend. He seems a bit muddled with his timing and later wad convicted of an assault in slightly similar circumstances. He could have lied about his whereabouts earlier with his girlfriend. Will have to look at his statement again.

Also where did Parceman go before all this kicked off

NW

There's also a chance that the woman who was assaulted by BS Man wasn't even Stride and Schwartz instead witnessed the other couple having a domestic.

If that was Spooner who threw his GF to the floor then maybe Stride was elsewhere when the assault happened.

The idea that Stride was assaulted by 2 different men in the same location just 15 minutes apart, is just as possible as 2 different women being attacked in the same location just 15 minutes apart.

Interesting

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just as examples I’m going to post three timelines which some of you might have seen if you’ve looked through the various other Berner Street threads. The weird thing is that I did a couple myself but I didn’t save them so they are ‘out there’ somewhere. They are from FrankO, George (GBinOz) and Dusty (DrStrange169)

FrankO

• Wess & company leave
• Letchford arrives
• Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
• Eagle returns to the club
• Stride & companion arrive close to the club
• Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
• Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
• couple arrives at the corner of the board school
• Brown passes and sees the couple
• Mortimer comes to her door
• Leon Goldstein passes the club
• Mortimer goes back inside
• Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
• Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman
• Eagle runs north in search of a PC, later joined by Kozebrodski
• Eagle & Kozebrodski find Lamb & Ayliff (PC 426 H)
• Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz
• Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
• P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by PC 426 H
• P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn
• Lamb blows his whistle
• P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
• P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
• PC 426 H arrives at Dr. Blackwell’s residence
• Eagle arrives at Leman Street police station
• As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
• Lamb closes the gates
• Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
• Inspector Pinhorn arrives
• Dr. Phillips arrives
• Inspector Reid arrives at the scene

George

<12:34 - Wess & company leave, Letchford arrives, Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes), Eagle returns to the club, couple arrives at the corner of the board school, Stride & companion arrive opposite the club

12:34 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.

12:35 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door. FM’s clock is running 10 minutes fast and shows 12:45.

12:45 - PM leaves door after locking up. Brown passes and sees the couple. Couple leaves. Schwartz turns into Berner St.

12:46 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street. Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St. Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. Pipeman and Schwartz depart to the south.

12:47 - 12:51 - Someone kills Stride

12:50 - Diemshitz turns into Berner St. Club clock is running 10 minutes slow and reads 12:40.

12:51 - Mortimer hears the cart pass. Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.

12:51 to 12:54 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and sees shape of woman, goes into club searching for his wife, locates candle and returns to discover the body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body.

12:55 - Club members depart the yard looking for police. Club clock reads 12:45.

12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.

12:58– Lamb is standing over body.

1:00 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and proceeds to yard.

1:01 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor and sends Eagle to Leman St PS.

1:03 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell, whose pocket watch is running fast and reads 1:10

1:06 - Johnson arrives at yard and is mistaken for Blackwell by Lamb and Diemshitz.

1:07 – Johnston opens Stride’s collar and begins to examine body. Lamb closes gates.

1:09 - Blackwell arrives at yard, finds gates closed. Pocket watch is running fast and shows 1:16. Finds Stride’s collar is open. Blackwell estimates Stride has been dead 20 minutes to half hour:- i.e. TOD of about 12:40 to 12:50 Police time


Dusty

02:00 ish - Mrs Stride helps clean 2 rooms at Flower and Dean doss house.

05:00 - Fixed point officer takes over the duty at cnr. Grove and Commercial

6:00 ish - Mrs Stride cleans up (not to met a man as has been suggested, but to go to the Queens Head, Commercial St.

07:00 ish - Mrs Stride returns to the doss house, sans a man. She gives Catherine Lane a piece of velvet to mind.

8:00 ish - She leaves the Doss house.

9:00 ish - Krantz starts work at the Der Aberter Fraint printing office.

The debating in the club starts.

10:00 - Smith goes on duty (presumably Lamb too)

11:00 ish - Best and Gardner see Mrs Stride leave the bricklayers arms Settles St.

11:30 ish - The debate ends, most members leave.

11:45 ish - Marshall, standing in his doorway, sees Mrs Stride pass with a man.

12:00 ish - He goes back inside.

A young girl walks past the club mets her boyfriend.

They walk up and down past Berner St in Commercial Road.

12:15 ish - Wess and two others leave for home.

12:30 ish - The couple return down Berner.

Charles Letchford returns home, his wife has been standing at the door waiting for him.

Lave leaves the club eventually going into the street. Stays outside the club for about 10 minutes.

Smith goes through Berner Street and sees Mrs Stride with Parcel man.

Fanny Mortimer hears Smith (?) pass.

Eagle returns to the club.

Mortimer goes to her doorway (she may have looked out previously).

12:45 ish - Schwartz goes down Berner Street.

Brown leaves his house and goes to the Chandler shop in Berner St.

12:49 ish - Brown leaves the shop and sees Mrs Stride on the corner of the board school.

Florence Letchford is standing in her doorway.

12: 55 ish - Goldstein goes down Berner St.

Smith passes Berner St along Fairclough.

12:58 ish - Mortimer locks up and soon after hears Diemshitz’s cart pass by.

1:00 - Deimshitz turns into Berner Street.

[The Rookie Detective]

Just as examples I’m going to post three timelines which some of you might have seen if you’ve looked through the various other Berner Street threads. The weird thing is that I did a couple myself but I didn’t save them so they are ‘out there’ somewhere. They are from FrankO, George (GBinOz) and Dusty (DrStrange169)

FrankO

• Wess & company leave
• Letchford arrives
• Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
• Eagle returns to the club
• Stride & companion arrive close to the club
• Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
• Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
• couple arrives at the corner of the board school
• Brown passes and sees the couple
• Mortimer comes to her door
• Leon Goldstein passes the club
• Mortimer goes back inside
• Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
• Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman
• Eagle runs north in search of a PC, later joined by Kozebrodski
• Eagle & Kozebrodski find Lamb & Ayliff (PC 426 H)
• Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz
• Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
• P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by PC 426 H
• P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn
• Lamb blows his whistle
• P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
• P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
• PC 426 H arrives at Dr. Blackwell’s residence
• Eagle arrives at Leman Street police station
• As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
• Lamb closes the gates
• Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
• Inspector Pinhorn arrives
• Dr. Phillips arrives
• Inspector Reid arrives at the scene

George

<12:34 - Wess & company leave, Letchford arrives, Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes), Eagle returns to the club, couple arrives at the corner of the board school, Stride & companion arrive opposite the club

12:34 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.

12:35 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door. FM’s clock is running 10 minutes fast and shows 12:45.

12:45 - PM leaves door after locking up. Brown passes and sees the couple. Couple leaves. Schwartz turns into Berner St.

12:46 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street. Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St. Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. Pipeman and Schwartz depart to the south.

12:47 - 12:51 - Someone kills Stride

12:50 - Diemshitz turns into Berner St. Club clock is running 10 minutes slow and reads 12:40.

12:51 - Mortimer hears the cart pass. Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.

12:51 to 12:54 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and sees shape of woman, goes into club searching for his wife, locates candle and returns to discover the body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body.

12:55 - Club members depart the yard looking for police. Club clock reads 12:45.

12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.

12:58– Lamb is standing over body.

1:00 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and proceeds to yard.

1:01 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor and sends Eagle to Leman St PS.

1:03 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell, whose pocket watch is running fast and reads 1:10

1:06 - Johnson arrives at yard and is mistaken for Blackwell by Lamb and Diemshitz.

1:07 – Johnston opens Stride’s collar and begins to examine body. Lamb closes gates.

1:09 - Blackwell arrives at yard, finds gates closed. Pocket watch is running fast and shows 1:16. Finds Stride’s collar is open. Blackwell estimates Stride has been dead 20 minutes to half hour:- i.e. TOD of about 12:40 to 12:50 Police time


Dusty

02:00 ish - Mrs Stride helps clean 2 rooms at Flower and Dean doss house.

05:00 - Fixed point officer takes over the duty at cnr. Grove and Commercial

6:00 ish - Mrs Stride cleans up (not to met a man as has been suggested, but to go to the Queens Head, Commercial St.

07:00 ish - Mrs Stride returns to the doss house, sans a man. She gives Catherine Lane a piece of velvet to mind.

8:00 ish - She leaves the Doss house.

9:00 ish - Krantz starts work at the Der Aberter Fraint printing office.

The debating in the club starts.

10:00 - Smith goes on duty (presumably Lamb too)

11:00 ish - Best and Gardner see Mrs Stride leave the bricklayers arms Settles St.

11:30 ish - The debate ends, most members leave.

11:45 ish - Marshall, standing in his doorway, sees Mrs Stride pass with a man.

12:00 ish - He goes back inside.

A young girl walks past the club mets her boyfriend.

They walk up and down past Berner St in Commercial Road.

12:15 ish - Wess and two others leave for home.

12:30 ish - The couple return down Berner.

Charles Letchford returns home, his wife has been standing at the door waiting for him.

Lave leaves the club eventually going into the street. Stays outside the club for about 10 minutes.

Smith goes through Berner Street and sees Mrs Stride with Parcel man.

Fanny Mortimer hears Smith (?) pass.

Eagle returns to the club.

Mortimer goes to her doorway (she may have looked out previously).

12:45 ish - Schwartz goes down Berner Street.

Brown leaves his house and goes to the Chandler shop in Berner St.

12:49 ish - Brown leaves the shop and sees Mrs Stride on the corner of the board school.

Florence Letchford is standing in her doorway.

12: 55 ish - Goldstein goes down Berner St.

Smith passes Berner St along Fairclough.

12:58 ish - Mortimer locks up and soon after hears Diemshitz’s cart pass by.

1:00 - Deimshitz turns into Berner Street.

And yet when you examine all 3 of these, not 1 of these examples actually works.

The first example from FrankO is perhaps the best of the bunch and plausible in terms of Chronology, but no approximate times are listed.

The 2nd conveniently requires 2 clocks being 10 minutes out to facilitate Schwartz and highlights my point exactly.

The 3rd is fragmented and chronologically unlikely.


I am yet to see a chronological sequence of events that doesn't alter aspects of what was said as a means to fit in the statement of a man who never went to the inquest and has never been identified.

I can accept approximate times of course.

But no more than 5 minutes either side of the stated timings

Otherwise, we are being bias in our attempts to fit it all in.


Ultimately, we have to identify the parameters of the kill time as the utmost priority in a murder case of this kind.

The physical parameters are set by Diemshitz circa 1am and Eagle who returned via the side door of the club circa 12.40am.

If we apply the "approximate" clock, we can be certain that Stride was murdered between 12.35am and 1.05am.

That may seem a pointless exercise but essentially; anything that occurred outside of these time parameters is contextually pointless in relation to the time Stride met her demise.

Of all the sightings it would seem most likely that PC Smith saw Stride with a man (Parcelman) sometime between 12.30am and 12.40am. (This includes the approximate clock parameters of 5 minutes either side of the stated time)

Sox we know that Stride was with a man shortly before the time she was murdered.

Again, this may seem pointless, but it's important to state; because the next step would be to question where and when the man seen with Stride left the scene.

I had suggested that perhaps Parcelman was also Bs Man, because they would have occupied the same space within minutes of each other.

However, Jon has quite rightly shown me the comparison of the descriptions of both Parceoman and Bs man respectively, and it is quite clear that Parcelman and Bs Man were NOT the same man.

And so, if Bs man was ahead of Schwartz and assaulted Stride at 12.45am (incidentally the same time Brown stated he saw a couple on the corner) then Parcelman had only a couple of minutes at the most to leave the scene without being seen by Schwartz.

In other words, if Parcelman was with Stride at 12.35am...

And both Lave and Eagle went back into the club circa 12.40am...

And BS man arrived in Berner Street before Schwartz...

...then where did parcelman go?


What is the intention of the Schwartz statement?

The primary impact that his statement has; is to rule out Parcelman as the killer.

Parcel man could not have been the man who cut Strides throat IF Schwartz's story is true and accurate.

We know that Parcelman and BS Man (if he existed) were NOT the same man (thanks Jon)

It's interesting that the initial suspect was Parcelman, but then along came Schwartz to save Parcelman's hind and the focus was then put onto Bs man.

Parcel man had to have gone somewhere without being seen by Schwartz or Mortimer

And it's therefore rather ironic that it's Schwartz that narrows Parcelman's escape time parameters

Of course, the only believable way that Stride was murdered by the Ripper, was if the kill time occurred just before Diemschitz arrived; ergo, the Ripper was disturbed before he could mutilate.

If Stride was a Ripper victim and she was either killed by Bs Man, then she is unlikely to have been a Ripper victim.

Of all the individuals in the street at the time, Bs man is the one person whose behaviour is the most un-ripper-like.

The Ripper didn't kill in the open and he certainly didn't leave any witnesses who could identify him.

Bs man wasn't the Ripper


And so does Schwartz's account try to dissuade us from believing Stirde was a Ripper victim?

Possibly

The primary consequence of Schwartz's words however; are to rule Parcelman AND push back the kill time to AFTER 12.45am, rather than moments after Parcelman left.

Of course, IF Parcelman was Lave, then Schwartz's story detracts from a transient club member from having murdered Stride and perhaps places more emphasis on the Ripper's potential involvement.


Interesting

[Juniper4576]

What is the consensus, was Liz a victim of Jack? As someone said, he was out that night, but isn't it a bit too much going on? I mean getting across town, finding Eddowes, getting away etc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And yet when you examine all 3 of these, not 1 of these examples actually works.

The first example from FrankO is perhaps the best of the bunch and plausible in terms of Chronology, but no approximate times are listed.

The 2nd conveniently requires 2 clocks being 10 minutes out to facilitate Schwartz and highlights my point exactly.

The 3rd is fragmented and chronologically unlikely.


I am yet to see a chronological sequence of events that doesn't alter aspects of what was said as a means to fit in the statement of a man who never went to the inquest and has never been identified.

I can accept approximate times of course.

But no more than 5 minutes either side of the stated timings

Otherwise, we are being bias in our attempts to fit it all in.


Ultimately, we have to identify the parameters of the kill time as the utmost priority in a murder case of this kind.

The physical parameters are set by Diemshitz circa 1am and Eagle who returned via the side door of the club circa 12.40am.

If we apply the "approximate" clock, we can be certain that Stride was murdered between 12.35am and 1.05am.

That may seem a pointless exercise but essentially; anything that occurred outside of these time parameters is contextually pointless in relation to the time Stride met her demise.

Of all the sightings it would seem most likely that PC Smith saw Stride with a man (Parcelman) sometime between 12.30am and 12.40am. (This includes the approximate clock parameters of 5 minutes either side of the stated time)

Sox we know that Stride was with a man shortly before the time she was murdered.

Again, this may seem pointless, but it's important to state; because the next step would be to question where and when the man seen with Stride left the scene.

I had suggested that perhaps Parcelman was also Bs Man, because they would have occupied the same space within minutes of each other.

However, Jon has quite rightly shown me the comparison of the descriptions of both Parceoman and Bs man respectively, and it is quite clear that Parcelman and Bs Man were NOT the same man.

And so, if Bs man was ahead of Schwartz and assaulted Stride at 12.45am (incidentally the same time Brown stated he saw a couple on the corner) then Parcelman had only a couple of minutes at the most to leave the scene without being seen by Schwartz.

In other words, if Parcelman was with Stride at 12.35am...

And both Lave and Eagle went back into the club circa 12.40am...

And BS man arrived in Berner Street before Schwartz...

...then where did parcelman go?


What is the intention of the Schwartz statement?

The primary impact that his statement has; is to rule out Parcelman as the killer.

Parcel man could not have been the man who cut Strides throat IF Schwartz's story is true and accurate.

We know that Parcelman and BS Man (if he existed) were NOT the same man (thanks Jon)

It's interesting that the initial suspect was Parcelman, but then along came Schwartz to save Parcelman's hind and the focus was then put onto Bs man.

Parcel man had to have gone somewhere without being seen by Schwartz or Mortimer

And it's therefore rather ironic that it's Schwartz that narrows Parcelman's escape time parameters

Of course, the only believable way that Stride was murdered by the Ripper, was if the kill time occurred just before Diemschitz arrived; ergo, the Ripper was disturbed before he could mutilate.

If Stride was a Ripper victim and she was either killed by Bs Man, then she is unlikely to have been a Ripper victim.

Of all the individuals in the street at the time, Bs man is the one person whose behaviour is the most un-ripper-like.

The Ripper didn't kill in the open and he certainly didn't leave any witnesses who could identify him.

Bs man wasn't the Ripper


And so does Schwartz's account try to dissuade us from believing Stirde was a Ripper victim?

Possibly

The primary consequence of Schwartz's words however; are to rule Parcelman AND push back the kill time to AFTER 12.45am, rather than moments after Parcelman left.

Of course, IF Parcelman was Lave, then Schwartz's story detracts from a transient club member from having murdered Stride and perhaps places more emphasis on the Ripper's potential involvement.


Interesting

If we limit the + or - to 5 minutes we would flying in the face of the research that has been carried out. If Jeff is reading this perhaps he could repost that table showing how far out humans can be when estimating times? 10/15 minutes is nothing.


Im a little rusty on Berner Street but I’ll add a timeline


12.32 Smith passed and sees the couple who move on after he passes.

12.33 Lave goes into the yard and walks around.

12.38 Eagle returns - he and Eagle don’t see each other (Eagle is in another part of the yard in the dark)

12.38 Lave also goes inside the club.

12.39 Fanny, after hearing Eagle’s footsteps and thinking they were a Constable’s) goes onto her doorstep.

12.46 A couple arrive and stand just around the corner of Fairclough Street (out of Fanny’s sight)

12.46 Leon Goldstein passes.

12.47 Brown goes for his supper and sees the couple.

12.47 Fanny goes back inside. She either didn't notice Brown or she didn’t bother mentioning him.

12.48 BS man walks south on Berner Street (Schwartz is a few yards behind him) Stride walks in the opposite direction and they meet at the gates.

12.50 The incident has occurred and the protagonists have gone. The street is empty.

1.00 Diemschitz returns and finds the body.

1.02 Brown hears the men shout as they run for a Constable

1.03 The men get back to the yard. Spooners ‘5 mins before Lamb’ is more like 3.

1.06 Lamb returns with Eagle. Lamb said that Blackwell arrived 10 minutes after him. So what time does Blackwell say that he got there?

1.16. Blackwell arrives.




There are other possible versions.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Neither Lave, Eagle, Diemschitz or anyone was involved in anything underhand. This is a very simple case of a woman getting killed. We just don’t know who did it.

[Lewis C]

Mortimer said the couple had been at the Board School before and after the murder. However she had thought the murder could only have been committed when she was indoors between 12:55am and 1am. It is entirely possible that the couple were only in the position Mortimer said they were from 12;50am or thereabouts.

I think that this is all true. If this couple is the same couple that James Brown saw, he didn't see them on his way to get dinner, but saw them on the way home, so they apparently had just arrived. If the couple that JB saw was Stride with another man, likewise, the couple must have arrived fairly late, after Stride and the other man had departed. So what you're calling entirely possible, I would call probable.

[Lewis C]

Of course, the only believable way that Stride was murdered by the Ripper, was if the kill time occurred just before Diemschitz arrived; ergo, the Ripper was disturbed before he could mutilate.

If Stride was a Ripper victim and she was either killed by Bs Man, then she is unlikely to have been a Ripper victim.

Of all the individuals in the street at the time, Bs man is the one person whose behaviour is the most un-ripper-like.

The Ripper didn't kill in the open and he certainly didn't leave any witnesses who could identify him.

Bs man wasn't the Ripper

Hi RD,

You're assuming here that Diemschutz is the only possible source of interruption. It could be that BS Man killed her and would have mutilated her, but something in the club spooked him, causing him to take off.

I'd say that the Nichols murder was in the open. I can accept the idea that he didn't leave witnesses if what you mean is that he didn't act violently in front of witnesses, but there are other people who may have seen him just before other Ripper murders.

FrankO's timeline is my favorite of the three too.

[Sunny Delight]

I think that this is all true. If this couple is the same couple that James Brown saw, he didn't see them on his way to get dinner, but saw them on the way home, so they apparently had just arrived. If the couple that JB saw was Stride with another man, likewise, the couple must have arrived fairly late, after Stride and the other man had departed. So what you're calling entirely possible, I would call probable.

Quite correct, Brown saw the couple as he returned from the Chandler Shop. That actually ties in quite nicely with events. If Mortimer spoke to the couple and informed them the murder was committed between 12:55-1am they would have rightly stated they had been there before and after, as they had just arrived at the Board School around 12:50am or so.