Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

RD,

Firstly Brown said this:

“[Coroner] Did you see enough to make you certain that the deceased was the woman? - I am almost certain.“

Even people that are certain can be mistaken and Brown wasn’t certain so we have to admit the possibility that the woman that he’d seen wasn’t Stride.

Then you say:

. Well it shows that James Brown was mistaken with his 12.45am timing of when he claimed he saw Stride

I may get accused of nitpicking but that’s not what Brown actually said. He said:

“I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.”

He was estimating the time. The Schwartz incident from the second that BS man first accosted the woman to the moment Schwartz fled the street would have occurred over a matter of mere seconds.

If we are to take the approach that all of these times are spot on then, for consistency, we would have to accept that either PC Long or DC Halse was a liar because according to them they both passed along Goulston Street at the same time and yet they didn’t see each other. Or do we take the reasonable approach that the likelier explanation was that their times were slightly out?

It also shows that Mortimer was wrong with her timing that she was said to be at her door

Mrs Mortimer herself appeared not to know when she was on her doorstep and when she was indoors. At best she might have spent a third of the half an hour indoors and very possibly longer.

There is no need to adjust times. Claiming that these times should be taken literally is a far greater crime against reason than it is to make an allowances. Without making time allowances we are whistling in the dark.

The simplest answer is the obvious one. Israel Schwartz walked along Berner Street and saw a man accost a woman outside the club. He past, got shouted at by the assailant and scarpered. The whole thing to around 20 or 30 seconds and no one else was around to see or hear it. Eagle and Lave were inside the club. Fanny was in her house. Brown had returned from the shop and was on his way home.

We don’t need witnesses pretending to be present when they weren’t for no reason. Especially when placing themselves at the scene of a knife murder with absolutely no one to assure the police that he hadn’t killed Stride. It makes no sense. A 20 or 30 second incident being unseen happens millions of times across the world every day.

[The Rookie Detective]

We know Mortimer couldn't have been at her door at 12.45am because she would have at least HEARD the shout of "Lipski!" in an otherwise relatively quiet street.

Try shouting Lipski (as I just did) as you think the B.S. man would have done. My results show it just wasn't that loud. You want us to assume it mimicked Marlon Brando in A Streetcar Named Desire...."STELLA!!!!!! We have no idea how loud it might have been.

It also shows that IF Bs Man wasn't the killer; that after the 12.45am assault, Stride spent some time in the yard doing potentially anything...except looking or calling for help from having been attacked. Between being assaulted at 12.45am to being found murdered at 1am, Stride chose not to do anything expect perhaps to suck on a cachou.

A reasonable response if it was just a little street hassle and nothing more.

Loyalty to Schwartz is one of the key reasons why the Stride murder has failed to progress anywhere in 136 years.

What exactly do you mean by "loyalty?" I accept his story (with a grain of salt) due to the language problems but I haven't made him the fourth member of the trinity. And doesn't your opinion of Mortimer border on "loyalty?" Is she was away from her door for just a few minutes she could have missed the whole thing.

c.d.

Ah, but its not Mortimer that's the key; its the combination of Mortimer, Brown, the other couple on the corner (seen by Brown and spoken about by Mortimer) and at least 2 individuals sitting downstairs in the club located on the yard side of the building who hears nothing whatsoever (allegedly)

It's also the translation of Bs Man shouting "Lipski"
The emphasis being on the word "shout"

We know that Schwartz understood the term 'Shout' because he said that Stride did it 3 times, but "not very loudly."
So Schwartz understand the concept of audibility and volume and yet he doesn't apply the term "not very loudly" to the man who yelled "Lipski" towards his general direction.
On that basis it would be reasonable to assume that Bs Man said the word "Lipski" loud and stern enough for Schwartz to realise he ought to run away.

Now if Mortimer came out at 12.47am and Brown walked past at 12.49am, then of course, the assault could have indeed taken place at 12.45am.

But that's precisely my point.

We can only fit the 12.45am for Schwartz IF we delay Mortimer, delay Brown and forget about the other couple who inexplicably heard and saw nothing.

Now for the sake of balance, Mortimer doesn't mention seeing Brown walk laterally across the end of the Street, and so on would expect Mortimer to have seen Brown at 12.45am if she was at her door at that time.

It therefore seems more likely that Brown had passed before Mortimer was at her door.

That could have happened between 12.44am and 12.46am respectively; but by extending that parameter by more than 2 or 3 minutes only serves as a means of manipulation to fit everything in, regardless of respective time variations between different individuals present at the time.

For Schwartz to be believed we can be certain that the indicate occurred either just before Mortimer got to her door, or just after she went indoors circa 12.55am. But the latter time would imply that either BS Man or Goldstein were the killer.
The reason for believing that the assault occurred before Mortimer was at her door, supports the idea that either Bs man wasn't the killer OR he was and the murder happened circa 12.45am instead.

The 12.45am kill time virtually rules out the killer being the Ripper because it eludes to the idea that the Ripper would of had more time.

For Stride to be considered an authentic Ripper victim, only a later kill time works because the Ripper was evidently interrupted and had to flee to evade capture.

Of course, to throw a curve ball... shortly before the murder of MJK, it was reported that a couple were seen talking with her in the street.

The idea that a couple were standing on the corner by the Board School the entire time and heard or saw nothing whatsoever, is also particularly suspect in itself.

Nichols was also killed yards from the Bucks Row Board School

What if the Ripper was in fact...a couple?

[c.d.]

t's also the translation of Bs Man shouting "Lipski"
The emphasis being on the word "shout"

But again, we don't know exactly how loud it was. And I don't think it was just a shout that scared off Schwartz. I think the B.S. man must have been looking at him in a confrontational manner with an accompanying gesture as if to say "hey, you want some of this?"

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Let's imagine that Schwartz's timings were accurate and an assault on Stirde occurred around 12.45am.

What does that do for everyone else?

Well it shows that James Brown was mistaken with his 12.45am timing of when he claimed he saw Stride say to a man "No, not tonight."

It also shows that Mortimer was wrong with her timing that she was said to be at her door. The approximate 10 minite time frame running from 12.45am - 12.55am when it was claimed the street was quiet and nobody was seen by Mortimer either entering or leaving the yard in which Stride was found murdered.
We know Mortimer couldn't have been at her door at 12.45am because she would have at least HEARD the shout of "Lipski!" in an otherwise relatively quiet street.

It also shows that IF Bs Man wasn't the killer; that after the 12.45am assault, Stride spent some time in the yard doing potentially anything...except looking or calling for help from having been attacked.
Between being assaulted at 12.45am to being found murdered at 1am, Stride chose not to do anything expect perhaps to suck on a cachou.

It also shows that the other couple on the corner of the board school mentioned by Mortimer, could not have been on the corner at 12.45am when and where Brown also saw a couple, because neither the other couple, Brown or Mortimer heard the shout of "Lipski!" or saw Schwartz, the inxoticated BS man or even Pipeman making an appearance from the approximate location of the Beerhouse on the corner, that would have been closed at the time of the assault (12.30am closing time for Beerhouses)

So with Schwartz's statement we can see that Mortimer, Brown and the other couple standing by the Board School could not have been either in the street, observing the street, or within earshot of a violent man shouting "Lipski" across the street.

However...

Is it not peculiar that when we omit Schwartz's story entirely (as we have with Packer) we then have a sequence of events that requires no time adjustments to make it all fit together.

I find it bizarre that the last person to have their times adjusted to fit...is Schwartz.

Why is that?

We either need to move the timings for 4 people, possibly 5 if we include Lave

Or we tweak the timing for just 1 person in Schwartz.

Its astonishing how there are those who choose to favour Schwartz over Brown and Mortimer.

But the fact is that Brown and Mortimer can be accounted for in that they both lived within close proximity to the murder site.

Whereas Schwartz...was a ghost with theatrical appearance.

Sometimes the simplest answers are the correct ones.

Of all the witnesses, its the anonymous and still unidentified witness whose timings and statement counters other multiple witnesses, including of course any of those located downstairs in the club who claimed they heard nothing...not even a man shout "Lipski!"

Loyalty to Schwartz is one of the key reasons why the Stride murder has failed to progress anywhere in 136 years.

If Schwartz was accurate then even by moving everyone else by a minute or two means there is no overlap. Brown stated he went to the Chandler shop around quarter to one. Mortimer said she was at her door around ten minutes when she saw Leon Goldstein at around 12:55am. The couple Mortimer spoke to said they were at the Board School before and after the murder. But Mortimer stated the murder must have taken place between 12:55am and 1am when she went inside. Otherwise she would have seen everything. She didn't seem to include the possibility that Stride was killed 15minutes earlier. And what was more someone had seen a man struggle with her and use a degree of force spinning her around and throwing her to the floor.

PC Smith passes Stride and Parcel Man at exactly 12,:35am. They are standing opposite Dutfields Yard at the other side of the street.

Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave arrive close to 12:40 at the club.

Israel Schwartz and BS man come down Berner Street at 12:44/45. The altercation happens with Stride who is now standing in Dutfields Yard's entrance. It is over in 30 seconds to a minute. Stride is killed immediately afterwards.

Mortimer comes to her door after hearing BS man pass at 12:47/48am. Schwartz placed 4 people on the street. We know the direction Schwartz and Pipeman went. We know Liz Stride was found dead at the same spot 10 minutes later. The only unaccounted for man is BS man who in my estimation walked past Mortimer's door just before she came to it.

The couple she speaks to who had been at the Board School roughly the same time- maybe closer to 12:49/50am.

James Brown passes them on the way to get supper at 12:50am

Fanny Mortimer still at her door witnesses Leon Goldstein passing Berner Street at 12:55am. He is the only man she saw in the ten minute period at her door. She goes inside.

Louis Diemshutz finds Elizabeth Strides body at 1am.

I think that is a reasonable timeline.