Jack's Escape Route?

[Herlock Sholmes]

But on what I have postulated it cannot be conclusively accepted that the killer had time to do all that he is alleged to have done. So where does the truth lie, It lies with all the connecting evidence and connecting facts that have been put forward for researchers to consider in an unbiased fashion if that can ever be achieved.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So it hasn’t been shown that the killer couldn’t have removed organs. And to follow on from that we have no evidence that they were stolen from the mortuary. The fact that there was a trade in body parts isn’t evidence of this. Therefore there is no evidence to suggest that the killer didn’t remove organs. It’s as simple as that.

[Trevor Marriott]

And your last point is one that I just can’t understand why you keep making it? If they moved off later then of course it would have reduced the time that the killer had in Mitre Square but we have no way of knowing either way. No one is ‘accepting’ anything because we simply don’t know. This point helps your theory in absolutely no way. For your theory to be advanced you would have to either a) prove that they definitely moved on later, or b) show evidence that it was likelier that the moved on later but you can do neither. So how does this help you?

We don’t know the exact time that Lawende and co passed. An estimated time is 1.35 but we all know that we have to allow for a margin for error. This margin could work in your favour in that the time might actually have been slightly later than 1.35 or it might work in the opposite way in that it might have been slightly earlier than 1.35.

So as a factual statement we can say that it’s entirely plausible that the couple arrived in MS at 1.35 or 1.36. Not proven of course but entirely plausible. And as we certainly have no definitive time on how long the murder, mutilations and organ removal would have taken we are left with the absolute fact that it can never, ever be shown that the killer wouldn’t have had time to have done what he did. So your attempts to promote this there is futile. If you think that saying “if they moved on later and if the murder would have taken 10 minutes or so then the killer couldn’t have had time therefore it’s proven he couldn’t have done it,” then it’s up to you but no one could accept this statement as valid.

But on what I have postulated it cannot be conclusively accepted that the killer had time to do all that he is alleged to have done. So where does the truth lie, It lies with all the connecting evidence and connecting facts that have been put forward for researchers to consider in an unbiased fashion if that can ever be achieved.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't buy these suggestions I am sure if the killer wanted to find an out-of-the-way secluded spot to engage the victim there were plenty of those around. I would imagine that if Eddowes was familiar with the area then she would have selected Mitre Square, but as Lawenede and co make no mention of seeing a constable how could the killer or Eddowes be able to calculate the beat times? They would not have been able to see Watkins's movements from where they stood, and unless they had been standing there for some considerable time to be able to see Harvey pass by they would not have been able to calculate his time.

The flaw in trying to calculate the timings as I have said before is that the timings researchers seem to want to accept are only estimated times, there is no evidence to show what time estimated or otherwise the couple moved into the square from where they were standing. so when I suggest the killer did not have time to carry out all that he is alleged to have done should not be dismissed as some seem to want to do, because the later they moved off the less time the killer would have and that I have to say is an irrefutable fact which has to cast a major doubt about the old accepted theory

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And your last point is one that I just can’t understand why you keep making it? If they moved off later then of course it would have reduced the time that the killer had in Mitre Square but we have no way of knowing either way. No one is ‘accepting’ anything because we simply don’t know. This point helps your theory in absolutely no way. For your theory to be advanced you would have to either a) prove that they definitely moved on later, or b) show evidence that it was likelier that the moved on later but you can do neither. So how does this help you?

We don’t know the exact time that Lawende and co passed. An estimated time is 1.35 but we all know that we have to allow for a margin for error. This margin could work in your favour in that the time might actually have been slightly later than 1.35 or it might work in the opposite way in that it might have been slightly earlier than 1.35.

So as a factual statement we can say that it’s entirely plausible that the couple arrived in MS at 1.35 or 1.36. Not proven of course but entirely plausible. And as we certainly have no definitive time on how long the murder, mutilations and organ removal would have taken we are left with the absolute fact that it can never, ever be shown that the killer wouldn’t have had time to have done what he did. So your attempts to promote this there is futile. If you think that saying “if they moved on later and if the murder would have taken 10 minutes or so then the killer couldn’t have had time therefore it’s proven he couldn’t have done it,” then it’s up to you but no one could accept this statement as valid.

[JeffHamm]

I think we will agree to disagree, and if it was the same killer, bearing in mind the different murder locations, how likely is it that he would have known or studied the beats in the locations? The killer was a predator and an opportunist and as you say the victims selected the locations, and unless they solicited themselves in the same spot every night I doubt they would have worried about beat times, and besides again as I have said the beat times might have varied depending on what happened during the beat or if the officer took longer on his beat for whatever reason

I doubt they could have seen Pc Watkins from where they stood

No worries Trevor, it's certainly not something we can know the truth of. I agree he doesn't know the actual beats (as in the streets, etc), but I don't think it unreasonable to suggest he is aware that most beats are about 15 minutes long, with some being longer (but it would be dangerous for him to assume the longer, so he would always have to think about leaving quickly, and only then if he knows roughly when the PC has last past this location).

And, yes, there's a good chance they didn't see PC Watkins, that's true. They would have to be looking towards Mitre Square as he passed the far end on his patrol of the square, which isn't a lot of time to see him, or maybe if he was shining his lamp they might see that for a bit longer. On the other hand, if the rain was coming down hard at the time PC Watkins does his patrol, though, he might not have his lamp open, and they might not be looking, so I can easily see how they could miss him. But, I'm only suggesting that given they are at one end of Church Passage, and PC Watkins walks by the other end where there is lighting, that means they had the opportunity to see him so we can't dismiss that possibility entirely in this case.

Of course, in all the other cases I don't think there was any opportunity for him to spot any of the PCs, so he was taking a huge risk. And given he was willing to do that then, why would this case be any different? So in the end, whether he saw PC Watkins or not, we know from the other cases that doesn't seem to prohibit him, making it a bit immaterial as the same actions were likely to occur in both situations.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I agree that PC Harvey would be an unknown, and given PC Harvey may have interrupted JtR, that even appears to have been the case. But, if (and of course I don't know this was the case) the Church Passage Couple were Eddowes and JtR, then given Lawende and company got up to leave the club at 1:30, and the CPC were seen by them as they waited for the rain, that would suggest the CPC were there at the time PC Watkins did his patrol. So the CPC were in a position where they could have seen PC Watkins pass at the other end, but Lawende and company, being on Duke street, were not. So Lawende and company would not have seen Watkins while the CPC could have.

I agree with you, though, that Eddowes is probably the one who chose Mitre Square (I think all the victims chose the locations), but that doesn't mean JtR doesn't have to evaluate them as well. Knowing that a beat takes about 15 minutes (which, in this case, would have been wrong because PC Watkins normally took between 12 and 14 minutes for this beat; so it's possible that PC Harvey's arrival, or Morris' door opening, prevented JtR from being spotted by PC Watkins as JtR leaves earlier than he might otherwise have done; but I digress).

I don't think it unreasonable to presume that JtR would be familiar with the habits of the police, but that isn't to say I think he had all the specific beats memorized. I just think he had a general knowledge of how long they were, and in the Eddowes case specifically, I think it is possible he spotted PC Watkins at 1:30. And the only reason they delayed going in after PC Watkins passed by was because of the rain. Otherwise, they may have gone in right on the tails of PC Watkins and Lawende and company might never have seen them.

Of course, it's possible that PC Watkins wasn't spotted by them, and if one wishes to argue that JtR knew nothing of the police habits, I can't say they must be wrong because of course I don't know what JtR saw or knew. It just seems likely to me that he was aware of the police because, well, he had to be given his activities.

- Jeff

I think we will agree to disagree, and if it was the same killer, bearing in mind the different murder locations, how likely is it that he would have known or studied the beats in the locations? The killer was a predator and an opportunist and as you say the victims selected the locations, and unless they solicited themselves in the same spot every night I doubt they would have worried about beat times, and besides again as I have said the beat times might have varied depending on what happened during the beat or if the officer took longer on his beat for whatever reason

I doubt they could have seen Pc Watkins from where they stood

[JeffHamm]

I don't buy these suggestions I am sure if the killer wanted to find an out-of-the-way secluded spot to engage the victim there were plenty of those around. I would imagine that if Eddowes was familiar with the area then she would have selected Mitre Square, but as Lawenede and co make no mention of seeing a constable how could the killer or Eddowes be able to calculate the beat times? They would not have been able to see Watkins's movements from where they stood, and unless they had been standing there for some considerable time to be able to see Harvey pass by they would not have been able to calculate his time.

The flaw in trying to calculate the timings as I have said before is that the timings researchers seem to want to accept are only estimated times, there is no evidence to show what time estimated or otherwise the couple moved into the square from where they were standing. so when I suggest the killer did not have time to carry out all that he is alleged to have done should not be dismissed as some seem to want to do, because the later they moved off the less time the killer would have and that I have to say is an irrefutable fact which has to cast a major doubt about the old accepted theory

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I agree that PC Harvey would be an unknown, and given PC Harvey may have interrupted JtR, that even appears to have been the case. But, if (and of course I don't know this was the case) the Church Passage Couple were Eddowes and JtR, then given Lawende and company got up to leave the club at 1:30, and the CPC were seen by them as they waited for the rain, that would suggest the CPC were there at the time PC Watkins did his patrol. So the CPC were in a position where they could have seen PC Watkins pass at the other end, but Lawende and company, being on Duke street, were not. So Lawende and company would not have seen Watkins while the CPC could have.

I agree with you, though, that Eddowes is probably the one who chose Mitre Square (I think all the victims chose the locations), but that doesn't mean JtR doesn't have to evaluate them as well. Knowing that a beat takes about 15 minutes (which, in this case, would have been wrong because PC Watkins normally took between 12 and 14 minutes for this beat; so it's possible that PC Harvey's arrival, or Morris' door opening, prevented JtR from being spotted by PC Watkins as JtR leaves earlier than he might otherwise have done; but I digress).

I don't think it unreasonable to presume that JtR would be familiar with the habits of the police, but that isn't to say I think he had all the specific beats memorized. I just think he had a general knowledge of how long they were, and in the Eddowes case specifically, I think it is possible he spotted PC Watkins at 1:30. And the only reason they delayed going in after PC Watkins passed by was because of the rain. Otherwise, they may have gone in right on the tails of PC Watkins and Lawende and company might never have seen them.

Of course, it's possible that PC Watkins wasn't spotted by them, and if one wishes to argue that JtR knew nothing of the police habits, I can't say they must be wrong because of course I don't know what JtR saw or knew. It just seems likely to me that he was aware of the police because, well, he had to be given his activities.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

He doesn't have to know the beats specifically, but most beats took around 15 minutes to complete a cycle, though at night I understand many beats were "doubles", so would take 30 minutes. If he knows that, and he spots the patrolling officer, he can generally expect about 15 minutes until that PC comes around again. In the case of Mitre Square, if the Church Passage Couple are Eddowes and JtR, then that vantage point would have allowed them to spot PC Watkins on his 1:30 patrol as he passed by (there was a light at that end of the passage, so PC Watkins would have been visible). He's still taking a risk as there could be other beats that pass by, as in the case of PC Harvey. But the general knowledge of the time it takes a PC to do their rounds that would be sufficient for him to work with, but it is still a big risk.

- Jeff

I don't buy these suggestions I am sure if the killer wanted to find an out-of-the-way secluded spot to engage the victim there were plenty of those around. I would imagine that if Eddowes was familiar with the area then she would have selected Mitre Square, but as Lawenede and co make no mention of seeing a constable how could the killer or Eddowes be able to calculate the beat times? They would not have been able to see Watkins's movements from where they stood, and unless they had been standing there for some considerable time to be able to see Harvey pass by they would not have been able to calculate his time.

The flaw in trying to calculate the timings as I have said before is that the timings researchers seem to want to accept are only estimated times, there is no evidence to show what time estimated or otherwise the couple moved into the square from where they were standing. so when I suggest the killer did not have time to carry out all that he is alleged to have done should not be dismissed as some seem to want to do, because the later they moved off the less time the killer would have and that I have to say is an irrefutable fact which has to cast a major doubt about the old accepted theory

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Mark J D]

... in the event he took account of police beats you'd have to believe he knew every possible police beat in the area, or kept a notebook complete with time and mileage which he glanced at prior to the mutilations.

This is another of the ways in which Lechmere scores so well as a suspect. He'd have known the early morning beats near Mitre Square from his former commute between James Street and Broad Street; and before Nichols was murdered, he'd had 11 weeks in which to see the police beats in and around Bucks Row. Just two very, very familiar areas. No notebook required.



M.

[JeffHamm]

I’ve never been convinced by the suggestion that the killer might have known the beats. As FM said, how could the killer know where he was going to find a victim and then surely the woman would have chosen the ‘venue’ as they would have known the safer spots. During this period even women desperate for money might have felt suspicion at a punter trying to guide her somewhere of his own choosing.

Unless we go for the suggestion that the killer was a police officer (whether serving or otherwise)?

He doesn't have to know the beats specifically, but most beats took around 15 minutes to complete a cycle, though at night I understand many beats were "doubles", so would take 30 minutes. If he knows that, and he spots the patrolling officer, he can generally expect about 15 minutes until that PC comes around again. In the case of Mitre Square, if the Church Passage Couple are Eddowes and JtR, then that vantage point would have allowed them to spot PC Watkins on his 1:30 patrol as he passed by (there was a light at that end of the passage, so PC Watkins would have been visible). He's still taking a risk as there could be other beats that pass by, as in the case of PC Harvey. But the general knowledge of the time it takes a PC to do their rounds that would be sufficient for him to work with, but it is still a big risk.

- Jeff

[Varqm]

I don't think it's realistic. The WM couldn't control where he was able to find a victim, and so in the event he took account of police beats you'd have to believe he knew every possible police beat in the area, or kept a notebook complete with time and mileage which he glanced at prior to the mutilations.

Of course it is realistic,but only the Mitre square case.How do and would you know? And how do you know he went to the City side for the purpose of escape and not specifically to murder another one.
This is the only double event.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve never been convinced by the suggestion that the killer might have known the beats. As FM said, how could the killer know where he was going to find a victim and then surely the woman would have chosen the ‘venue’ as they would have known the safer spots. During this period even women desperate for money might have felt suspicion at a punter trying to guide her somewhere of his own choosing.

Unless we go for the suggestion that the killer was a police officer (whether serving or otherwise)?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I don't think it's realistic. The WM couldn't control where he was able to find a victim, and so in the event he took account of police beats you'd have to believe he knew every possible police beat in the area, or kept a notebook complete with time and mileage which he glanced at prior to the mutilations.

Absolutely Mac, the idea that the killer had an encyclopedic knowledge of the beats is a bit TV special.

A tad more realistically, he may well have been streetwise enough to know that if a policeman has passed, he might not be back round for a little while, but I'd probably not credit much beyond that.

Factor in the inconsistency and variability of the beats and times and it's just not likely that anything ran like clockwork.

(You could also chuck in Bobbies slacking off, chatting, having brews with watchmen and being drunk on duty to further skew those times)

[Fleetwood Mac]

But what if he knew Harveys constant beat at least as far as Church passage is concerned.

I don't think it's realistic. The WM couldn't control where he was able to find a victim, and so in the event he took account of police beats you'd have to believe he knew every possible police beat in the area, or kept a notebook complete with time and mileage which he glanced at prior to the mutilations.

[FrankO]

No bother, Frank. I for one think it can confidently be stated that the police didn't know very much at all.

Assuming this is the case and speed was of the essence, why didn't they enter the square before Lawende and associates approached?

It is true that we have no way of knowing, but that sentiment doesn't negate the proposition that it all adds up to being a stretch.

OK, so, in a nutshell, you seem to be saying that you don’t believe that:
- the couple seen by Lawende & Co. were Catherine & her murderer
- JtR would have stayed put when either Morris opened his door or Harvey came down Church Passage
And you say that because, otherwise, the timing would seem too tight.

If correct, I have no qualms with that. In fact, I'd agree with you regarding the second point (that the murderer left on account of either Morris or Harvey rather than Watkins). On the first point I'm less sure. As far as I know, the only ones who saw a couple were Lawende & Co. and that couple wasn’t just anywhere in the vicinity of the square, but right at one of the entrances to it. Furthermore, neither Watkins nor Harvey - nor, apparently, anybody else - saw a couple or any single persons, for that matter.

If there, however, was another couple that was, in fact, Catheringe & Jack, then the idea would have to be that they'd entered the square through Mitre Street after Watkins had been there at around 1.30. St. James Place is very improbable to say the least because of Blenkinsop. So, if they entered through Mitre Street, then they did so without Watkins seeing them, making the time perhaps a minute or so after 1.30 at the earliest.

Of course, we could discuss these 2 possibilities till the cows come home and, perhaps, also get some new perspectives, but the way I see it, it doesn’t distract from the fact that, from wherever Eddowes & JtR entered the square and however few minutes he had with her, she was alive & well when she entered the square and the Ripper had done all that was done to Eddowes when he left her there. Or, as Prosector once wrote: “At the end of the day does it matter if he performed the Eddowes killing in 1 minute or 10? He did it and we know that he certainly couldn't have taken more than about 10 minutes.”

[DJA]

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.