Jack's Escape Route?

[Herlock Sholmes]

But the killer could not have murdered, mutilated, rifled her pockets cut a piece of apron carefully nicked the eye lids and removed these organs in 3 minutes. As I keep saying Sequeaira gave that interview before the post mortem had been carried out, and you have deliberatly ignored the issue of the lighting at that part of the square for him to be able to clearly see what he was doing which would have been an issue with the loacting of the organs in he first instance.


www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ive never understand why you persist in making this point Trevor? Here is Dr. Sequiera making exactly that point at the inquest - which of course was after the Post Mortem. So he knew that there were organs missing at the time that he said it.


“Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon, of No. 34, Jewry-street, Aldgate, deposed: On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body, and I entirely agree with the evidence of Dr. Gordon Brown in that respect.
By Mr. Crawford: I am well acquainted with the locality and the position of the lamps in the square. Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed.“

[DJA]

These comments are from Prosector, a member and practising surgeon.

"As for the assertion that no 'knife skills' or special knowledge was used in the Eddowes dissection - I utterly refute that and would be happy to debate it sometime when I've got a few hours to spare. The big thing that everyone overlooks in this debate is that in 1888 abdominal surgery was virtually unknown. Sir Frederick Treves performed the first successful appendicectomy in Britain in its present sense in 1887 (and the appendix is very near the surface and therefore relatively easy to get at). Very few surgeons had ever ventured into the depths of the abdomen in 1888 except in a limited way during dissection as medical students (bodies were very difficult to come by - most students only got (and still only get) one body to dissect in their entire career, shared with several others. The bit of colon removed in the Eddowes dissection was the descending colon. This lies behind the posterior peritoneum and in front of the left kidney. It is relatively immobile compared with the rest of the intestines and JTR needed to get it out of the way in order to access the kidney. The fact that it was slightly crudely done is not surprising in the circumstances. I am certain that I could not have done any better, kneeling on the ground, in the dark with a 7 inch knife as my only instrument and no assistants to retract the abdominal flaps and contents. To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all. Also, don't forget that Bond and others who said that JTR did not display either surgical skill or anatomical knowledge, they were not practicing surgeons. Bond was only the surgeon to Out Patients at the Westminster Hospital and he did not have operating rights. In my view the only one who had the slightest idea of what was involved was Bagster Philips.".

Henry Gawen Sutton and Sir Frederick Treves both worked at the London Hospital.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Yes, you can't take a risk if you're not there. I actually lean towards a 2-3AM time for the Chapman murder, but one has to keep an open mind.

I agree.

I think (because I have difficulty finding my own posts) I estimated at or before 2.30, which is about the middle of your estimate.

MacNaghten estimated 5.28, based on Cadoche.

The coroner was in an unenviable position but, after clashing with the doctor, he was unlikely to reject the eyewitness testimony, which was obviously wrong.

Long was obviously wrong even if Cadoche had been right.

[JeffHamm]

Meh.Child of the 1940s.Had a fair innings.

Thanks for your concern.

Well done. Don't always agree on the details, but I support your view on the forest. (Don't get excited, I could be wrong! )

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

These comments are from Prosector, a member and practising surgeon.

"As for the assertion that no 'knife skills' or special knowledge was used in the Eddowes dissection - I utterly refute that and would be happy to debate it sometime when I've got a few hours to spare. The big thing that everyone overlooks in this debate is that in 1888 abdominal surgery was virtually unknown. Sir Frederick Treves performed the first successful appendicectomy in Britain in its present sense in 1887 (and the appendix is very near the surface and therefore relatively easy to get at). Very few surgeons had ever ventured into the depths of the abdomen in 1888 except in a limited way during dissection as medical students (bodies were very difficult to come by - most students only got (and still only get) one body to dissect in their entire career, shared with several others. The bit of colon removed in the Eddowes dissection was the descending colon. This lies behind the posterior peritoneum and in front of the left kidney. It is relatively immobile compared with the rest of the intestines and JTR needed to get it out of the way in order to access the kidney. The fact that it was slightly crudely done is not surprising in the circumstances. I am certain that I could not have done any better, kneeling on the ground, in the dark with a 7 inch knife as my only instrument and no assistants to retract the abdominal flaps and contents. To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all. Also, don't forget that Bond and others who said that JTR did not display either surgical skill or anatomical knowledge, they were not practicing surgeons. Bond was only the surgeon to Out Patients at the Westminster Hospital and he did not have operating rights. In my view the only one who had the slightest idea of what was involved was Bagster Philips.".

[GBinOz]

Like the coroner, I used to accept Cadoche's evidence, but I changed my mind recently after looking at all the medical evidence.

And that means the murderer didn't take anything like as big a risk.

Yes, you can't take a risk if you're not there. I actually lean towards a 2-3AM time for the Chapman murder, but one has to keep an open mind.

[Trevor Marriott]

You keep repeating that but it’s just not the case Trevor. His 3 minutes including absolutely everything. Leaving out the organ removal would have made absolutely no sense. Why would they possibly have wanted to know just about the murder and mutilations. They were interested in how long the killer might have been in situ therefore everything that he’d done was clearly included in his estimate.

But the killer could not have murdered, mutilated, rifled her pockets cut a piece of apron carefully nicked the eye lids and removed these organs in 3 minutes. As I keep saying Sequeaira gave that interview before the post mortem had been carried out, and you have deliberatly ignored the issue of the lighting at that part of the square for him to be able to clearly see what he was doing which would have been an issue with the loacting of the organs in he first instance.

But this has been gone over more times than I care to think about, the point of posting the image was to show how dark it was likely to have been and with that the problems the killer would have encountered with the organ removals

May I also remind you what Dr Brown stated

“Dr Brown—“The bladder was in no way injured in the body, (eddowes bladder) and I may mention that a man accustomed to remove the portions removed was asked by me to do so as quickly as possible. He accomplished the task in three minutes, but not without injuring the bladder”

I would bet this test was not done under the same conditions as Mitre Square. So we have a victorian medical expert who at speed was not able to repricate fully the killers actions which you are so quick to want to prop up.

And furthermore by Brown instigating this test clearly shows he had concern about the time the killer had with the victim

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

Meh.Child of the 1940s.Had a fair innings.

Thanks for your concern.

Hang in there Bro, there aren't many of us perfect blokes left.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I previoulsy posted a re creation of Chutch passage and the lightiing. I came across another image of the actual murder location in Mitre Square and if it was as dark as this in this corner then I have to ask yet again could the killer not had enough time but sufficent light for him to remove the organs.

Now before I get swamped with the statement made by Dr Sequeira who stated there was sufficient light I will clarify that in as much as he made that statement only in relation to the murder and the mutilation when he says it all could have been done in three minutes which is an impossible time.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You keep repeating that but it’s just not the case Trevor. His 3 minutes including absolutely everything. Leaving out the organ removal would have made absolutely no sense. Why would they possibly have wanted to know just about the murder and mutilations. They were interested in how long the killer might have been in situ therefore everything that he’d done was clearly included in his estimate.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi George
Just to clarify the killer would have been able to see Harvey coming down the passage twoards him.

There was a street lamp at the entrance to the passage where the couple were standing and there was a lamp outside Kearley and Tonges. that being said becasue of those lights harvey would not have been able to see into the square giving the killer the advantage and the oportuntity to make good his escape via Mitre Street which is in my opinon the only exit he could have used unseen.

The picture below is one of a number created by Jane Coram which paints a better picture of the Church Passage location and shows the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges

I previoulsy posted a re creation of Chutch passage and the lightiing. I came across another image of the actual murder location in Mitre Square and if it was as dark as this in this corner then I have to ask yet again could the killer not had enough time but sufficent light for him to remove the organs.

Now before I get swamped with the statement made by Dr Sequeira who stated there was sufficient light I will clarify that in as much as he made that statement only in relation to the murder and the mutilation when he says it all could have been done in three minutes which is an impossible time.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

Crikey,thought that was my arthritis playing up

[Parisi North Humber]

I am genuinely sorry to hear that Dave, sending some positive vibes your way.

Helen x

[DJA]

Meh.Child of the 1940s.Had a fair innings.

Thanks for your concern.

[Parisi North Humber]

I have posted most of it here on Casebook.Not that difficult to search.Recently searched Prosector's posts which was most interesting.44 pages including questions,replies,etc.

Spent over 16 years seeking a suitable screenwriter.Had a bit of bad luck.
I'd like to get a start on a the script,however my health will not see out the start of production,so the project is not a money thing.
Major producer has wanted to make a Jack the Ripper movie for a long time.
That close .... that far.

Thank you and the others who have supported me over the years

Oh Dave I hope that's not as ominous as it sounds?

Helen x

[DJA]

Hi Dave,

I am also interested in your theory, as you know. When can we expect the main course and dessert?

Cheers, George

I have posted most of it here on Casebook.Not that difficult to search.Recently searched Prosector's posts which was most interesting.44 pages including questions,replies,etc.

Spent over 16 years seeking a suitable screenwriter.Had a bit of bad luck.
I'd like to get a start on a the script,however my health will not see out the start of production,so the project is not a money thing.
Major producer has wanted to make a Jack the Ripper movie for a long time.
That close .... that far.

Thank you and the others who have supported me over the years