Jack's Escape Route?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What we’re faced with on this issue can be narrowed down to two questions. 1. Can we show that the killer wouldn’t have had time, capability or conditions to kill and mutilate Catherine Eddowes and then remove her organs before exiting Mitre Square by one of the three exits? And 2. Do we have evidence that those organs weren’t taken by the killer but were taken at the morgue to be sold on (which is Trevor’s theory/suggestion)

To prove the second suggestion we would have to be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that the killer couldn't have done what he is considered to have done (although it could be said that even if the killer had time it still doesn’t prove that he did it) .For various reasons it is absolutely impossible to prove this. We know that the times cannot be considered as set-in-stone so a reasonable margin for error has to be allowed for as long as we don’t take unlikely liberties. This could take us either way of course, + or -. We can’t be certain for example what time the couple could have reached the murder site because we can’t know how accurate were the times given by the three witnesses and we can’t know how soon after the witnesses passed they walked into Mitre Square. As Trevor points out, the later the time the less time the killer would have therefore the less likely it would have been but as none of the three witnesses looked back we don’t know. We we can say for certain though is that they could have moved on immediately after the witnesses passed.

Because of the above it’s impossible to answer the question - did the killer have time? We don’t know how long he had and we don’t know how long he would have needed (or what level of anatomical knowledge he would have required for that matter?) The Doctors who were there at the time expressed no doubts about the possibility. On the level of light available for example, Dr. Sequiera felt that the killer would have had sufficient light and so his opinion on the conditions at the time surely must trump any doubts that we might have 134 years later. Some modern experts express doubts about how long the whole ‘operation’ would have taken but some modern experts don’t, so we have divided opinion, but it has to be remembered that we don’t know how long the killer had available to him.

So we don’t know how long the killer had available to him (as little as 3 or 4 minutes or as long as 9 or 10 minutes or anywhere in between) And we are nowhere near to a definitive conclusion on that point. This is a long winded way of course of saying that we just cannot prove anything either way. And no amount of debate (without new and accurate information) will alter that.

Apart from the above do we have independent evidence that the organs were taken at the mortuary? We know that there was a trade in organs but the existence of a trade is not evidence that it was in operation on this occasion. These theft’s took place after a post mortem so we have to ask why a thief would, on this occasion, steal organs before a post mortem. An open abdomen can’t be a reasonable suggestion. Why would the killer risk removing organs whilst investigations were going on, risking their operation being uncovered (and all just to avoid having to cut open some stitches) Also we have to consider how ‘high profile’ this murder was with the corpse attracting far more interest from the authorities than most other corpses. There’s also evidence that an officer was left guarding a body at morgue for one of the previous victims so this introduces the possibility that Eddowes body might also have been guarded. For me this makes organ removal at the mortuary unlikely in the extreme.

So to sum up - we can’t prove that the organs weren’t taken at the mortuary and we can’t prove that the killer had the time or capability to have removed them in-situ. What we can show is that it was entirely possible that the killer could have had 8 or 9 minutes available to him. We can show that the Doctors at the time expressed no doubt that the killer took the organs and no doubt that the conditions were sufficient for him to have done so. We have modern experts expressing doubts but also modern experts that don’t. We have no evidence of anything illegal or underhand occurring at Golden Lane Mortuary and there were certainly no suspicions expressed at the time. And if we consider the canonical 5 we can see that (apart from Stride for obvious reasons) the only one where organs weren’t removed was Nichols in Bucks Row (yes, Trevor disagrees on Kelly’s heart) and she is the only one where the killer could have been interrupted (by Lechmere) So it appears that if the killer had the opportunity to do so he removed organs.

We can’t prove anything but for me, taking everything into consideration, I’d say that it’s overwhelmingly likely (to a near certainty in my opinion) that the killer took Catherine Eddowes kidney and uterus in Mitre Square. There’s just no evidence for anything else.

[Trevor Marriott]

I am surprised by your answer because I thought you were questioning Sequeira's estimate of three minutes on the ground that longer would have been required.

My point, though, was that bearing in mind the extra time that would have been required by the woman - assuming she was Eddowes - to meet and negotiate with another man, she could hardly have been murdered by anyone other than the man seen with her by Lawende.

The whole question of times is an important factor in the Eddowes murder, especially for those who believe the killer had the time to do all that he is alleged to have done, and the introduction of the scenario that the couple seen by Lawende were not Eddowes and the killer, and that Eddowes and the killer entered the square from another entrance. That scenario is reliant on Pc Watkins's inquest testimony being unsafe by reason of him not being where he said he was. or what he did at the times he stated and not checking Mitre Square as he said he did on his first pass. Unfortunately, we cannot prove or disprove his testimony.

If of course, Eddowes decided to prostitute herself she would likely as not go to a location where she knew men would be and the area around Mitre Sq was a known haunt of prostitutes i.e The Drinking Club opposite Mitre Square or the area around St Botolphs church which was a known location for prostitutes, so the likelihood of them entering from another entrance other than Church passage is highly unlikely.

As to the Doctor's timings, I believe they were spoken to by a Star reporter at the crime scene before the organs were found to be missing. Sequeira`s estimated time of 3 minutes would be an impossible time for the killer to have carried out the murder, mutilations and removing organs, but 3 minutes would have been an achievable time for the killer to simply murder and mutilate. Dr Brown stated at least 5 minutes but did the killer even have 5 mins or longer with the victim?

The deciding factor, in my opinion, is if it is accepted that the killer and Eddowes were the couple seen by Lawenede is what time did they enter the square researchers to date have wrongly calculated the time the killer had with Eddows at the crime scene based on a start time of 1.35 am and an end time of 1.44 am when Watkins came back into the square making 9 minutes, but not factoring in Pc Harveys time which cuts that 9 mins down.

1.35 am is the time they were seen standing talking, there is no evidence to show what time they walked off down Church Passage and into the square the longer they stood talking the less time the killer would have had with the victim at the crime scene.

In relation to the organ removals, it should be noted that the crime scene was described as being the darkest part of Mitre Square I have to ask how on earth was the killer able to see and locate organs inside a blood-filled abdomen to be able to remove these organs with breakneck speed?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

I am surprised by your answer because I thought you were questioning Sequeira's estimate of three minutes on the ground that longer would have been required.

My point, though, was that bearing in mind the extra time that would have been required by the woman - assuming she was Eddowes - to meet and negotiate with another man, she could hardly have been murdered by anyone other than the man seen with her by Lawende.

Wrong . Clearly you dont know what your talking about if you believe this .

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

How long would it take to do nothing more than simply murder and mutilate?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I am surprised by your answer because I thought you were questioning Sequeira's estimate of three minutes on the ground that longer would have been required.

My point, though, was that bearing in mind the extra time that would have been required by the woman - assuming she was Eddowes - to meet and negotiate with another man, she could hardly have been murdered by anyone other than the man seen with her by Lawende.

[Trevor Marriott]

I agree with what you write, but, as I pointed out some time ago, Lawende said the woman had her hand on the man's chest, which suggests she was more than willing to go with him, and it is therefore likely that they set off for the Square not long after.

I agree that that would have left him very little time to do what was done, but would you not agree that if the woman was Eddowes, the lack of time means the man must have been the murderer?

How long would it take to do nothing more than simply murder and mutilate?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I would say he left the square when he saw and heard Harvey coming down Church passage towards him which would have been about the time you quoted

But its not just a question of how much time he would have needed, but how much time he actually had with the victim, based on the couple seen standing at the entrance to the square by Lawende at approx 1.35am and them being the killer and Eddowes, but there is no evidence to show what time they moved off into the square. the later they moved off the less time the killer had with Eddowes to do all that he is purported to have done.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I agree with what you write, but, as I pointed out some time ago, Lawende said the woman had her hand on the man's chest, which suggests she was more than willing to go with him, and it is therefore likely that they set off for the Square not long after.

I agree that that would have left him very little time to do what was done, but would you not agree that if the woman was Eddowes, the lack of time means the man must have been the murderer?

[Trevor Marriott]

I am pleased to see that you agree with me that the murderer left the Square via Mitre Street, which is what I wrote in one of my earliest posts here.

My reasoning was that not only would it have been too risky to go back down Church Passage because of Harvey's presence there or nearby it, but the route to Goulston Street via Mitre Street, Aldgate High Street and Whitechapel High Street was the most logical, and turning left into Aldgate High Street would have meant he would not have encountered Watkins on his beat because Watkins would have been coming from behind him.

Would you agree with me that he must have left the Square at about 1.42 in order to have avoided being noticed by Watkins, and how much time do you think the murderer would have needed to do what he did?

I would say he left the square when he saw and heard Harvey coming down Church passage towards him which would have been about the time you quoted

But its not just a question of how much time he would have needed, but how much time he actually had with the victim, based on the couple seen standing at the entrance to the square by Lawende at approx 1.35am and them being the killer and Eddowes, but there is no evidence to show what time they moved off into the square. the later they moved off the less time the killer had with Eddowes to do all that he is purported to have done.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi Trevor,

I agree that PC Harvey would be an unknown, and given PC Harvey may have interrupted JtR, that even appears to have been the case. But, if (and of course I don't know this was the case) the Church Passage Couple were Eddowes and JtR, then given Lawende and company got up to leave the club at 1:30, and the CPC were seen by them as they waited for the rain, that would suggest the CPC were there at the time PC Watkins did his patrol. So the CPC were in a position where they could have seen PC Watkins pass at the other end, but Lawende and company, being on Duke street, were not. So Lawende and company would not have seen Watkins while the CPC could have.

I agree with you, though, that Eddowes is probably the one who chose Mitre Square (I think all the victims chose the locations), but that doesn't mean JtR doesn't have to evaluate them as well. Knowing that a beat takes about 15 minutes (which, in this case, would have been wrong because PC Watkins normally took between 12 and 14 minutes for this beat; so it's possible that PC Harvey's arrival, or Morris' door opening, prevented JtR from being spotted by PC Watkins as JtR leaves earlier than he might otherwise have done; but I digress).

I don't think it unreasonable to presume that JtR would be familiar with the habits of the police, but that isn't to say I think he had all the specific beats memorized. I just think he had a general knowledge of how long they were, and in the Eddowes case specifically, I think it is possible he spotted PC Watkins at 1:30. And the only reason they delayed going in after PC Watkins passed by was because of the rain. Otherwise, they may have gone in right on the tails of PC Watkins and Lawende and company might never have seen them.

Of course, it's possible that PC Watkins wasn't spotted by them, and if one wishes to argue that JtR knew nothing of the police habits, I can't say they must be wrong because of course I don't know what JtR saw or knew. It just seems likely to me that he was aware of the police because, well, he had to be given his activities.

- Jeff

It is indeed possible that the murderer left the Square when he did because he saw Harvey coming down Church Passage.

Had Harvey been delayed, then the murderer might have remained in the Square and been forced to leave via Church Passage as he heard Watkins approaching.

In that case, he might have been caught by Harvey.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I was reacting to the faith Trevor has in the police because they seem to have believed the couple were Catherine & her murderer and, Trevor says, since there's no evidence against this notion, we have to accept that the couple was, in fact, Catherine & her murderer.

And that is why Lawende's description of the man is such an important piece of evidence.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I previoulsy posted a re creation of Chutch passage and the lightiing. I came across another image of the actual murder location in Mitre Square and if it was as dark as this in this corner then I have to ask yet again could the killer not had enough time but sufficent light for him to remove the organs.

Now before I get swamped with the statement made by Dr Sequeira who stated there was sufficient light I will clarify that in as much as he made that statement only in relation to the murder and the mutilation when he says it all could have been done in three minutes which is an impossible time.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I am pleased to see that you agree with me that the murderer left the Square via Mitre Street, which is what I wrote in one of my earliest posts here.

My reasoning was that not only would it have been too risky to go back down Church Passage because of Harvey's presence there or nearby it, but the route to Goulston Street via Mitre Street, Aldgate High Street and Whitechapel High Street was the most logical, and turning left into Aldgate High Street would have meant he would not have encountered Watkins on his beat because Watkins would have been coming from behind him.

Would you agree with me that he must have left the Square at about 1.42 in order to have avoided being noticed by Watkins, and how much time do you think the murderer would have needed to do what he did?

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Stine? you mean Stride?

Stride, yes, sorry. An obvious Zodiac victim Freudian slip. :-)

[Abby Normal]

To GbinOz

Re: Jack as risk taker

Chapman: If we believe that bump the neighbour heard was when Jack laid the dead woman down, then he was at the height of his sexual frenzy. No one is around as Jack sees it, so he continues.

Eddowes: Jack can be considered near the end of his frenzy, so his senses come back to him. He will escape then. And, this kill had to be finished, the way Jack sees it, as the Stine kill had to be aborted.

Jack takes risks but calculated ones. He would not freeze in place once the act was done.

Stine? you mean Stride?

[BooksbyBJThompson]

To GbinOz

Re: Jack as risk taker

Chapman: If we believe that bump the neighbour heard was when Jack laid the dead woman down, then he was at the height of his sexual frenzy. No one is around as Jack sees it, so he continues.

Eddowes: Jack can be considered near the end of his frenzy, so his senses come back to him. He will escape then. And, this kill had to be finished, the way Jack sees it, as the Stine kill had to be aborted.

Jack takes risks but calculated ones. He would not freeze in place once the act was done.

[Trevor Marriott]

So it hasn’t been shown that the killer couldn’t have removed organs. And to follow on from that we have no evidence that they were stolen from the mortuary. The fact that there was a trade in body parts isn’t evidence of this. Therefore there is no evidence to suggest that the killer didn’t remove organs. It’s as simple as that.

It doesn't have to be conclusively shown that the killer could not have removed the organs, all that there needs to be is to show the original facts relied upon are unsafe together with the reasons and therefore cannot be relied upon, and then other alternatives have to be considered which you seem to want to foolishly dismiss outright

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Varqm]

It was not solely the timings but could only be what corner a police beat ends.