Jack's Escape Route?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I dont have to present an arguement its just a no brainer , try this .

Eddowes leaves the man she was seen with by Lawende, [insert any 100 reasons /excuses that a whore and her john might not agree on] Eddowes walks back though dukes passage arrive just at the corner next ot mitre street, where the killer attacks her and kills her then leaves via Mitre stree exit . Its not rocket science !!

That's very far-fetched.

I wrote that Eddowes could hardly have been murdered by anyone other than the man seen with her by Lawende.

You responded:

Wrong . Clearly you dont know what your talking about if you believe this .


Anyone from outside this forum would likely wonder why my comment should receive such an aggressive response and also how, when I responded:


If it is so clear, why cannot you present a reasoned argument instead of merely issuing an insult?

you could possibly add:

I dont have to present an arguement its just a no brainer

which implies that there is no need to present arguments - only to ridicule and rubbish ones presented by one particular member - me.


You now write:

Eddowes leaves the man she was seen with by Lawende, [insert any 100 reasons /excuses that a whore and her john might not agree on]

That is not credible.

The woman had her hand on the man's chest.

She needed money.

There is no reason to suppose that they broke up.


You then write:

Eddowes walks back though dukes passage

There are two things wrong with what you have written: first, there was not a passage called Duke's Passage.

Secondly, if you mean Church Passage, you have no way of knowing that she had come from Mitre Square itself.

You are making an assumption which is unsupported by the evidence.

There is no reason to think that Eddowes would have gone to Mitre Square unless she were already in the company of a potential customer.


You then write:

arrive just at the corner next ot mitre street,

Again, there is no reason why Eddowes would have gone from Church Passage to the Mitre Street corner of Mitre Square if she had broken up with the man seen with her.


You then write:

where the killer attacks her and kills her then leaves via Mitre stree exit . Its not rocket science !

It isn't any kind of science, but pure speculation which runs counter to the evidence.

It assumes that the murderer is lying in wait at the Mitre Street corner of the Square for a victim who may never come.

It assumes that the murderer is unconcerned that while waiting there, Pc Watkins will be arriving roughly every 14 minutes and might wonder what the man is doing alone in Mitre Square in the early hours of the morning.

It assumes that if the man hangs around alone in the Square and arouses suspicion, he is unconcerned about being questioned or searched.


I am waiting to see whether the host of members - including Elamarna and Herlock Shomes - who have repeatedly accused me of making assumptions (when actually I had made reasonable deductions from evidence) are going to point out that you have made invalid 'assumption after assumption'.

[FISHY1118]

If it is so clear, why cannot you present a reasoned argument instead of merely issuing an insult?

I dont have to present an arguement its just a no brainer , try this .

Eddowes leaves the man she was seen with by Lawende, [insert any 100 reasons /excuses that a whore and her john might not agree on] Eddowes walks back though dukes passage arrive just at the corner next ot mitre street, where the killer attacks her and kills her then leaves via Mitre stree exit . Its not rocket science !!

[Curious Cat]

I think he was nowhere near them because he had been at Church Passage at about 1.28 a.m.

Yes, Jeff Hamm's simulation appears to show he wasn't close to passing by after Lawende and co. left the scene. They also just missed seeing him go by before leaving the club.

[Curious Cat]

Hi Curious Cat,

I put together some simulations based upon the testimony we have which might help get an idea of where people were at different times. Keep in mind, the locations shown are rough estimates, but given what we have to work with, I think give us a reasonable idea of the relative locations of people over time. Some things, of course, we don't know (like what exit did JtR take when he left Mitre Square? And at what time did he leave?), but I've made some defendable assumptions and tried to include as many of the options that seem possible (meaning they don't have JtR running headlong into one of the PC's), even if not all seem equally probable.

Anyway, you can find a link to the Mitre Square simulation here. That thread has links to my attempts for the Nichols and Stride murders as well, the latter being the most complicated one, and while I'm fairly happy with it I recognize it could still be improved, and other options could be explored than the one's I chose. Basically, what I try and show is one possible flow of events, and please don't misconstrue that as if they show the only possible flow of events.

- Jeff

Thanks, that's very useful.

PC Harvey would seem to have been well out of the way for all events until shortly before the killer left the scene and PC Watkins found the body. This of course also goes with Lawende and co. apparently seeing no policeman around when they left the club (at least there's mention of one).

But this does make me wonder. If you take the simulation back further, is there a possibility of PC Harvey and Catherine Eddowes being close to passing each other along Houndsditch? Keeping the same walking speed for PC Harvey, and assuming Catherine took that route down towards Aldgate (maybe returning to the spot she was found drunk and arrested a few hours earlier?), would it be about 1:10am they may have passed each other on opposite sides of Houndsditch? Or would he have just missed her when going round the top of Duke Street and back out to Houndsditch again?

[JeffHamm]

May have missed this being answered either here or elsewhere, but do we know whereabouts on his beat PC Harvey would have been when Lawrende and co. left the club and saw the couple by Church Passage? Could he have just missed them or was he nowhere near at that point?

Hi Curious Cat,

I put together some simulations based upon the testimony we have which might help get an idea of where people were at different times. Keep in mind, the locations shown are rough estimates, but given what we have to work with, I think give us a reasonable idea of the relative locations of people over time. Some things, of course, we don't know (like what exit did JtR take when he left Mitre Square? And at what time did he leave?), but I've made some defendable assumptions and tried to include as many of the options that seem possible (meaning they don't have JtR running headlong into one of the PC's), even if not all seem equally probable.

Anyway, you can find a link to the Mitre Square simulation here. That thread has links to my attempts for the Nichols and Stride murders as well, the latter being the most complicated one, and while I'm fairly happy with it I recognize it could still be improved, and other options could be explored than the one's I chose. Basically, what I try and show is one possible flow of events, and please don't misconstrue that as if they show the only possible flow of events.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Maybe he thought that the heart was enough?

You know full well as I do that the heart was not taken away

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Her kidney and uterus were removed and a significant fact that seems to be ignored is that Chapman and Eddowes were the only two victims who had their abdomens opened in such a way by their killer that organs could have been removed other than by the killer in the 12 hours between the bodies being taken to the mortuaries and the organs found to be missing, leading to the belief that the killer had removed them.

Notwithstanding that out of all the victims, they were the only two that any attempt was made to eviscerate and take away organs, and take Kellys murder after ripping her organs out he could have taken all the internal organs away but he took none and there was no anatomical knowledge shown with the Kelly murder whereas with Chapman and Eddowes anatomical knowledge was evident in the removal of their organs

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Maybe he thought that the heart was enough?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

May have missed this being answered either here or elsewhere, but do we know whereabouts on his beat PC Harvey would have been when Lawrende and co. left the club and saw the couple by Church Passage? Could he have just missed them or was he nowhere near at that point?

I think he was nowhere near them because he had been at Church Passage at about 1.28 a.m.

[Curious Cat]

May have missed this being answered either here or elsewhere, but do we know whereabouts on his beat PC Harvey would have been when Lawrende and co. left the club and saw the couple by Church Passage? Could he have just missed them or was he nowhere near at that point?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Her kidney and uterus were removed and a significant fact that seems to be ignored is that Chapman and Eddowes were the only two victims who had their abdomens opened in such a way by their killer that organs could have been removed other than by the killer in the 12 hours between the bodies being taken to the mortuaries and the organs found to be missing, leading to the belief that the killer had removed them.

Notwithstanding that out of all the victims, they were the only two that any attempt was made to eviscerate and take away organs, and take Kellys murder after ripping her organs out he could have taken all the internal organs away but he took none and there was no anatomical knowledge shown with the Kelly murder whereas with Chapman and Eddowes anatomical knowledge was evident in the removal of their organs

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Did you intend your last paragraph to end not removed them?

I understand that you dispute the finding that Kelly's heart was missing, but it was described as being absent and Abberline's inventory does not mention it.

[Trevor Marriott]

Although - assuming Dr Phillips was right and the coroner wrong at the inquest - the killer must have had much more time to mutilate Chapman, would he not have been working in just as dark conditions as in Mitre Square?

And does not the fact that organs were missing in her case suggest that it was the murderer who excised Eddowes' kidney?

Her kidney and uterus were removed and a significant fact that seems to be ignored is that Chapman and Eddowes were the only two victims who had their abdomens opened in such a way by their killer that organs could have been removed other than by the killer in the 12 hours between the bodies being taken to the mortuaries and the organs found to be missing, leading to the belief that the killer had removed them.

Notwithstanding that out of all the victims, they were the only two that any attempt was made to eviscerate and take away organs, and take Kellys murder after ripping her organs out he could have taken all the internal organs away but he took none and there was no anatomical knowledge shown with the Kelly murder whereas with Chapman and Eddowes anatomical knowledge was evident in the removal of their organs

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Wrong . Clearly you dont know what your talking about if you believe this .

If it is so clear, why cannot you present a reasoned argument instead of merely issuing an insult?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In relation to the organ removals, it should be noted that the crime scene was described as being the darkest part of Mitre Square I have to ask how on earth was the killer able to see and locate organs inside a blood-filled abdomen to be able to remove these organs with breakneck speed?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Although - assuming Dr Phillips was right and the coroner wrong at the inquest - the killer must have had much more time to mutilate Chapman, would he not have been working in just as dark conditions as in Mitre Square?

And does not the fact that organs were missing in her case suggest that it was the murderer who excised Eddowes' kidney?

[Herlock Sholmes]

We cannot conclusively prove how much time the killer had with Eddowes so on that basis we have to keep an open mind and look for other circumstantial evidence in an attempt to prove either scenario and in my opinion that overall evidence is more in favour of the killer not taking the organs than him taking them but I am not going to argue with you as we have argued these points many time in the past

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I’m not interested in arguing. That wasn’t the point of my post. I was just making a summing up. To suggest that the evidence points against the killer removing the organs is simply wrong and doesn’t require debate. There isn’t one single, solitary piece of evidence against it. Just your opinion added to the fact that the trade in body parts existed. Against that we have the ranges of time available, the fact that no one at the time (including the Doctors) saw any reason for doubt, the complete lack of evidence of body part stealing at Golden Lane Mortuary (which was for the time pretty much state of the art) I’m happy to leave it at that.

[Trevor Marriott]

What we’re faced with on this issue can be narrowed down to two questions. 1. Can we show that the killer wouldn’t have had time, capability or conditions to kill and mutilate Catherine Eddowes and then remove her organs before exiting Mitre Square by one of the three exits? And 2. Do we have evidence that those organs weren’t taken by the killer but were taken at the morgue to be sold on (which is Trevor’s theory/suggestion)

We cannot conclusively prove how much time the killer had with Eddowes so on that basis we have to keep an open mind and look for other circumstantial evidence in an attempt to prove either scenario and in my opinion that overall evidence is more in favour of the killer not taking the organs than him taking them but I am not going to argue with you as we have argued these points many time in the past

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk