writing on the wall

[Trevor Marriott]

hi
in a recent post is was said the apron piece was as large as a (bath ) towel ?
i think ladies' personal hygiene towels would be smaller.
surely no more than eight inches.

there is no evidence to show the size of either of the pieces of apron other than to try and calculate the sizes of both pieces by how Dr Brown matched them. The mortuary piece was a corner piece so by that i take it to be a quarter of what a full size apron would measure, Dr Brown then fitted the GS piece to the mortuary piece which fitted by the seams of the borders. So by that we are able to calculate that the two pieces could not have made up a full apron because they were from the same side making up just half of an apron. thats why there is no evidence to show that when the two pieces were matched they made up a full apron

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

The killer was obviously focused on putting distance between himself and the crime scene. My hypothesis is that PC Harvey disturbed him when he walked down Church Passage. The Ripper cut the piece of apron away and left via the exit to the south. I imagine he went along Whitechapel Road before discarding the apron in a quiet spot out of sight. First though he wipes his knife and maybe his hands. The main thing for him would be to get as far from the scene as quickly as possible. It would be conceivable he felt capture was closing in as he might have believed PC Harvey was on the verge of finding Eddowes. His discarding of the apron is done in haste as he is just glad to get clear of the murder scene and get cleaned without suspicion. How he managed to escape from Mitre Square will always remain a mystery to me. Not inexplicable but he was very very lucky.

But if he was disturbed he would not have had the time to cut piece of apron because of how he had arranged her clothes. They were up above her waist making the apron if she had been wearing one the most difficult item of clothing to locate.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

But I say again, why wait so long, every minute spent carrying his knife and the apron piece was a potential minute leading to his capture.

But if that had been the case what happened to the organs? Again I am playing devils advocate in an effort to show posters how unlikey some of the explantions are that have been put forward by posters to explain away the negatives surrounding the apron piece and the alleged removal of the organs.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You are correct, Trevor but you are also trying to assign rational thought and behavior to someone who just cut a woman's throat and ripped out her internal organs. But if he wanted the apron as a trophy, even though he knew carrying it on his person was risky, we have no way of knowing how that conflict played out in his mind and why he dropped the apron at a particular location.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Is there any evidence that in 1888 impoverished Eastenders would spend their hard earned pennies to buy rags? If they did so, would Eddowes have earned enough money from the sales to buy another apron to replace the one she allegedly used as a sanitary towel instead of one of her rags?

an old apron would be easily acquired especially if it was only part of an apron

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Reckon they were actually basements.

Having difficulty posting an article "Merchant House,39 Gouston Street".

Well done that man!

As obvious as it sounds, 'basement' is more often associated with American'ism. Yet, it is used in Victorian dictionaries.

Basement.
A floor or story which is wholly or in part beneath the surface of the ground, but is usually, as distinguished from a cellar, well lighted, and fitted up and used for household or other usual purposes.
https://archive.org/details/centuryd...ter&q=basement

Darn, that is an American dictionary....

Here we are, an English Dictionary, 1881

Basement
"The ground floor; the part below the level of the street."

https://archive.org/details/etymologicalpron00storrich/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater

[DJA]

But that's not a 'cellar' though Harry, and yes I know in many large victorian houses there was an outside entrance to the rooms below ground, but in that case people were working there.
A 'cellar' has a function, it's purpose is more along the lines of storage, if people live or work down there it's not a 'cellar'.

Reckon they were actually basements.

Having difficulty posting an article "Merchant House,39 Gouston Street".

[DJA]

Basement

[milchmanuk]

One of the most ridiculous theories I have ever come across to be honest.

hi
in a recent post is was said the apron piece was as large as a (bath ) towel ?
i think ladies' personal hygiene towels would be smaller.
surely no more than eight inches.

[Wickerman]

You are correct Trevor.The entrance to the cellar,in some houses of that era,was outside.As it was terraced housing,and most abbuted the pavement,t was easier to access by delivery people.

But that's not a 'cellar' though Harry, and yes I know in many large victorian houses there was an outside entrance to the rooms below ground, but in that case people were working there.
A 'cellar' has a function, it's purpose is more along the lines of storage, if people live or work down there it's not a 'cellar'.

[DJA]

Where was the apron between 1.44am and 2.55am?

[Sunny Delight]

Is there any evidence that in 1888 impoverished Eastenders would spend their hard earned pennies to buy rags? If they did so, would Eddowes have earned enough money from the sales to buy another apron to replace the one she allegedly used as a sanitary towel instead of one of her rags?

One of the most ridiculous theories I have ever come across to be honest.

[Sunny Delight]

But I say again, why wait so long, every minute spent carrying his knife and the apron piece was a potential minute leading to his capture.

But if that had been the case what happened to the organs? Again I am playing devils advocate in an effort to show posters how unlikey some of the explantions are that have been put forward by posters to explain away the negatives surrounding the apron piece and the alleged removal of the organs.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The killer was obviously focused on putting distance between himself and the crime scene. My hypothesis is that PC Harvey disturbed him when he walked down Church Passage. The Ripper cut the piece of apron away and left via the exit to the south. I imagine he went along Whitechapel Road before discarding the apron in a quiet spot out of sight. First though he wipes his knife and maybe his hands. The main thing for him would be to get as far from the scene as quickly as possible. It would be conceivable he felt capture was closing in as he might have believed PC Harvey was on the verge of finding Eddowes. His discarding of the apron is done in haste as he is just glad to get clear of the murder scene and get cleaned without suspicion. How he managed to escape from Mitre Square will always remain a mystery to me. Not inexplicable but he was very very lucky.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Please see replies set out below

Is there any evidence that in 1888 impoverished Eastenders would spend their hard earned pennies to buy rags? If they did so, would Eddowes have earned enough money from the sales to buy another apron to replace the one she allegedly used as a sanitary towel instead of one of her rags?

[Trevor Marriott]

So many reasons. Aim, intention? Or maybe in the dark it was not obvious there was a big drop beyond the railings. I dont think any of us are in a situation where we can second guess what is going on in the mind of such a person. Let alone what was going on in the street at the time. All it could take is someone to walk past giving him a look up and down. He could have been past by someone panics, drops the organs down a drain or alleyway and then chucks the apron piece into a door way. Thinking by chucking the two away seperately the less the chance (all be it remote) of them being linked. On these kind of streets I think the chances of offal remaining in one place with out being taken by a scavenger, for a long time are pretty slim.

This is total speculation on my part. But after seeing the contempory pics, I think it is at least a possiblity.

But the description of the apron piece is not consistent with freshly removed organs being carried away in, it so for that reason I rule out organs being carried away in it

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Losmandris]

The 1889 Police Code (in effect in 1888), page 28, under Beats, includes three requirements.
The third requirement is divided into seven (a - g) rules, the sentence ends with..."the following rules may be advantageously borne in mind by constables on the beat":-

"(g) To see that doors, windows, gratings, cellar-flaps, fan-lights, and places through which a thief might enter, or obtain access, are not left open".

It's my view that if PC Long was doing his job right he could not possibly have missed the rag had it been there at 2:20 (or 1:50 for that matter), he would have had to pretty much step over it to try the door.

Nothing to say (apart from him) that he didn't that first time around? Imagine it came out that he did in fact just ignore it, not going to look too good on him is it?