writing on the wall

[milchmanuk]

it,s amazing what can be read into the writing on the wall, also the apron left in front of it clearly at the same time as the Police record shows !
i kept coming up with ideas i had to stop writing them before i start to incorporate dealers and accomplices' .

[Abby Normal]

But I'm sure the journos would've had the inside scope on the details of the murders.
Also, apparently the GSG author didn't have anything to say about the Jews in his letters

both points well taken

[Harry D]

I dont rule it out, but no not really. dear boss/saucyjack gets three things right. again too many coincidences.
Im also a tad skeptical of the assurances of some of the top police guys like anderson and MM.

But I'm sure the journos would've had the inside scope on the details of the murders.
Also, apparently the GSG author didn't have anything to say about the Jews in his letters

[Abby Normal]

You're not impressed with the conclusion that it was a sensationalist journo behind them?

I dont rule it out, but no not really. dear boss/saucyjack gets three things right. again too many coincidences.
Im also a tad skeptical of the assurances of some of the top police guys like anderson and MM.

[Harry D]

I also think theres a better chance than not that dear boss and or saucy jack is authentic so the ripper IMHO was prone to this sort of thing.

You're not impressed with the conclusion that it was a sensationalist journo behind them?

[Abby Normal]

I can certainly see both sides of the argument, keeping in mind that correlation does not imply causation. There is a Jewish theme to the double-event, with the first murder happening outside the Jewish Socialists Club, Schwartz / "Lipski", Lawende, the GSG... but were these just incidental to the fact the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods?

It would be unusual for a killer to risk returning to the streets post-facto, carrying incriminating evidence, to scrawl an enigmatic message on the wall. If the policemen were right that the apron wasn't there originally, then he must have ducked in somewhere up to an hour before reappearing. A killer willing to take bold gambles to put his message across but he never bothered to attempt this at Miller's Court?

However, it was one hell of a coincidence that the apron was found near to the graffito. That cannot be easily ignored.

Hi Harry
too many "coincidences" for me re the jewish angle to be unrelated.

And who knows why serial killers will do one thing one time and then not do it again? perhaps he felt he got his point across, and or it was the frustration of being disrupted by jews that night that prompted the GSG. and if hutch was the ripper he blamed jews verbally re Kellys murder rather than in writing. (added that the only direct evidence implicating jews is the GSG and hutch-hint hint.) : )

I also think theres a better chance than not that dear boss and or saucy jack is authentic so the ripper IMHO was prone to this sort of thing.

[Harry D]

well if anyone fancies hutch as suspicious, he did implicate a jew, although not in writing. But im with wulf on this one-the events of the double event clearly point to the ripper writing the GSG.

I can certainly see both sides of the argument, keeping in mind that correlation does not imply causation. There is a Jewish theme to the double-event, with the first murder happening outside the Jewish Socialists Club, Schwartz / "Lipski", Lawende, the GSG... but were these just incidental to the fact the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods?

It would be unusual for a killer to risk returning to the streets post-facto, carrying incriminating evidence, to scrawl an enigmatic message on the wall. If the policemen were right that the apron wasn't there originally, then he must have ducked in somewhere up to an hour before reappearing. A killer willing to take bold gambles to put his message across but he never bothered to attempt this at Miller's Court?

However, it was one hell of a coincidence that the apron was found near to the graffito. That cannot be easily ignored.

[Fleetwood Mac]

But it is possible that he did write messages, but the Police didnt pick up on them.....and so being frustrated with this, he made certain the Goulston Street message was to be found.

I'd say lot of things are possible, but for me it is where that 'possible' lands on the spectrum of likelihood.

I'd absolutely concede that this wouldn't be the first person who went against the grain and did something out of the ordinary, but the way I think is that in the absence of evidence the only thing we have is the experience of what serial killers generally do.

[spyglass]

Well, there are only two bits of experience we have:

1) The Whitechapel Murderer: there is no evidence of him writing on walls at any other crime scene.

2) Other serial killers: they don't tend to scrawl on walls.

I can't think of any other experience to draw upon.

Based on that, I doubt he was the author of the GSG.

But it is possible that he did write messages, but the Police didnt pick up on them.....and so being frustrated with this, he made certain the Goulston Street message was to be found.

[spyglass]

The general behaviour of criminals would support that. They don't hang around after getting what they wanted.

Well he didnt hang around Mitre Sq where there was plenty of wall space.
I think Goulston Street was a fair enough distance to do so.

[Abby Normal]

The graffito doesn't sit right with me either. Why would the killer return to the streets to write some vague message?

There's no evidence the killer left any messages after the previous murders. If he was the communicating type, wasn't Miller's Court the perfect spot (of course, some believe he did)? It's unusual to me that if the killer did have a racial or political motive, it wasn't evident elsewhere. The Zodiac Killer obviously used his murders as a pretext to wage a terror campaign on Northern California. For me, the mutilations and organ removal of the Whitechapel murders were an end unto themselves. Suddenly the killer decides he's going to use this one murder to stir up the social unrest against the Jewish population. He was willing to risk getting caught and hung for it, but never bothered again?

I also think some theorists take the police concerns at the time and reverse-engineer the author's intent. They mistakenly feared that an anti-semitic riot would break out, therefore they presume that was the killer's plan when he stopped to write it. That may well have been the case, but I find it's still problematic.

well if anyone fancies hutch as suspicious, he did implicate a jew, although not in writing. But im with wulf on this one-the events of the double event clearly point to the ripper writing the GSG.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Why would the killer return to the streets to write some vague message?

The general behaviour of criminals would support that. They don't hang around after getting what they wanted.

[Harry D]

Well, there are only two bits of experience we have:

1) The Whitechapel Murderer: there is no evidence of him writing on walls at any other crime scene.

2) Other serial killers: they don't tend to scrawl on walls.

I can't think of any other experience to draw upon.

Based on that, I doubt he was the author of the GSG.

The graffito doesn't sit right with me either. Why would the killer return to the streets to write some vague message?

There's no evidence the killer left any messages after the previous murders. If he was the communicating type, wasn't Miller's Court the perfect spot (of course, some believe he did)? It's unusual to me that if the killer did have a racial or political motive, it wasn't evident elsewhere. The Zodiac Killer obviously used his murders as a pretext to wage a terror campaign on Northern California. For me, the mutilations and organ removal of the Whitechapel murders were an end unto themselves. Suddenly the killer decides he's going to use this one murder to stir up the social unrest against the Jewish population. He was willing to risk getting caught and hung for it, but never bothered again?

I also think some theorists take the police concerns at the time and reverse-engineer the author's intent. They mistakenly feared that an anti-semitic riot would break out, therefore they presume that was the killer's plan when he stopped to write it. That may well have been the case, but I find it's still problematic.

[Fleetwood Mac]

just because there is no evidence of writing at other crime scenes (Ike?) or that such communications are uncommon, there is no way, in your opinion, that such a scenario could have played out in Whitechapel.

Which is not what I stated.

So, either you lack reading comprehension or you are cynically manipulating my post, neither are useful in a sensible debate.

The best that can be said in this case is what is likely. That's really what we're getting at. The fallback position of: "we don't just know" is completely meaningless when discussing the Whitechapel Murderer given there is a lot we don't know and we're discussing that which is most likely and not every possible eventuality.

I said: experience tells us that it is doubtful the Whitechapel Murderer was the author of the GSG. In the event you want to reply to what I actually said, including the experience that I've missed and tells us otherwise, then feel free; if you're planning on replying to something I didn't say, then save yourself the time and don't bother as I won't be replying.

[Aethelwulf]

The last thread was clogged up with nonsense posts, ad hominem arguments. And here you are, you want to bring this to another thread.

It's clear that a few of you are intent on having an argument, are not constructive in your posts and the posts lack any reference to the source material.

Furthermore, it's noticeable that many of the posters who used to post on here don't bother anymore. They post on JTR Forums instead. It's pretty obvious why.

At this point the mods really should be getting a grip on a few of you, but it seems they have abandoned a sinking ship and the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

The mods won't tell you so I will: stop being a child, post something constructive, in the event you're here to have a fight with someone then go back to the Richardson thread, you have willing takers on there.

now now, keep your dummy in old bean. all i said was that you have a narrow mind on this subject. just because there is no evidence of writing at other crime scenes (Ike?) or that such communications are uncommon, there is no way, in your opinion, that such a scenario could have played out in Whitechapel. As I said, narrow minded when the specifics of the Stride murder suggest JtR very probably wrote the GSG.

You just keep on with your mod fantasy.