writing on the wall

[Abby Normal]

nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.

bingo. they are not only connected by proximity but by the content of the message and events of that night:message-disparaging jews, events-ripper interupted by jews.

another non mystery of this case, that some want to make into one for some reason.

[Wickerman]

So, we're looking for a short fella, habitué of the area, may have had cause to have a piece of chalk on him (like a lecturer, for example), but who also was so adept at surgery, he could work in darkness, "as if by feel"? Seems a long shot ticking those boxes... especially if said individual was also a specialist in kidneys.

Or it was simply a schoolkid, most graffiti is written by kids. There was a school around the corner.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

The man who accosted Sarah Lewis and her friend or sister was seen talking to two women by a Mrs. Kennedy(probably Lewis using a pseudonym) as she passed the Brittania on the way to the Keyler's on the night Kelly was murdered. She does not say the women was Kelly- just that she was hatless...

On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before.
......Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday.
Evening News, 10 Nov.

You are taking Walter Dew's comments that Kelly was often hatless adding 2 +2 and getting 5. Strange that there is no record of the other woman being found or even attempts by Police to trace her if she was with Kelly so close to her death. We cannot know this person was Kelly. It may have been. The liklihood is that it was not.

(Sarah Lewis)
In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man. He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one. I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.
Daily News, 13 Nov.

A woman with no hat on - that is hatless. Nothing to do with Walter Dew, though his observation is consistent with other evidence.

Everyone is welcome to invent their own drama, I go by what is stated in writing by witnesses.

Bowyer at the Inquest did not mention the Wednesday night incident but said he had last seen her on Wednesday afternoon when he had spoken to her in the Court.

Bowyer was never asked.
When you are in court you only answer the questions given to you.

[FISHY1118]

nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.

yer, have to agree with that .

[Aethelwulf]

Halse tells us it was written on the black Dado, and that the black Dado came up the wall about 4 feet (48 inch), the wall being white above that.

Some years back we managed to get the dimensions of those 19th century house bricks, and the cement line between the bricks.
This photo shows the cement line at 49.5 inch from the ground, the line at 72 inch (6 ft) is just for reference. The apron (red) must have been somewhere below the graffiti, as long says.



We don't really know which side of the entrance the graffiti was written, but there was a lamp towards the left side, which should mean the right side of the archway would be lit, the left side would be in shadow, so it's just more likely to have been on the right side.

nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.

[Wickerman]

It wasnt written at eye level, more waist height downwards.

Halse tells us it was written on the black Dado, and that the black Dado came up the wall about 4 feet (48 inch), the wall being white above that.

Some years back we managed to get the dimensions of those 19th century house bricks, and the cement line between the bricks.
This photo shows the cement line at 49.5 inch from the ground, the line at 72 inch (6 ft) is just for reference. The apron (red) must have been somewhere below the graffiti, as long says.



We don't really know which side of the entrance the graffiti was written, but there was a lamp towards the left side, which should mean the right side of the archway would be lit, the left side would be in shadow, so it's just more likely to have been on the right side.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Jon,

Were you conducting this experiment in daylight or in the dark? Even on smooth rendered brickwork I find it difficult to believe that anything legible could have been achieved in lower case at that size with a stick of chalk in the dark.

Best regards, George

yet we have the evidence to say it was done. i doubt the ripper went out that night intending to shout lipski and follow it up with a jewish slur. The implication being that he may have always had some chalk on him and may have written other messages, so writing like this was not unfamiliar. just because it seems like a difficult thing for us to attempt today does not mean it was for him in 1888. There were other chalk messages, discussed on another thread, and ripper may have written some of those. I believe there was one found near Hanbury Street that said something like 'this is my third murder' (tabram, nicholls, chapman?). The FBI profile also mentions the possibility of graphic drawings - some of these other chalk messages had rude depictions of women with a knife pointing at them. I suspect many of these other chalk message were written by the same nut jobs that sent in most of the ripper letters, but some of them could be genuine.

[GBinOz]

I also tried to write a few capitals at 3/4" height with a regular stick of chalk - some came out readable but the italics (lower-case?) were not readable.
There's something here that we are missing.

Hi Jon,

Were you conducting this experiment in daylight or in the dark? Even on smooth rendered brickwork I find it difficult to believe that anything legible could have been achieved in lower case at that size with a stick of chalk in the dark.

Best regards, George

[GBinOz]

Hi Jeff.

I wrote "assaulted", I meant "accosted", but yes, he has been known as the Bethnal Green Botherer. Odd that he should appear at the end of the street talking to Kelly moments before she is murdered.

Yes Jeff, I picked up on the stagger of BS-man that could be described as "an awkward gait", it's just that I would have to dismiss Parcel-man & Packers-man, which I take to be mutually supportive as regards evidence.

Bowyer saw a stranger talking to Kelly on the Wednesday, he had "peculiar eyes", respectably dressed with collar & cuffs, similar to the man described by Packer. (Western Mail, 12 Nov.)
The man with Stride about 11:00pm at the Bricklayer's Arms, was said to have "rather weak eyes", I take Parcel-man seen by PC Smith, and Packer's man, as all the same individual.
Then there's the man seen by Thimbleby at 6:00am on the morning of the Chapman murder, running from Hanbury to Brick Lane, he had a "peculiar gait", and was about 30 yrs old.
Without any names these could all be different individuals, but there are similarities in these various descriptions that mean we shouldn't easily dismiss the possibility they could be the same man.

Hi Jon,

Then there is the man reported by Daily telegraph 6 Oct:
It is a remarkable circumstance - much more than an ordinary coincidence - that the description of the supposed murderer given by Packer was yesterday confirmed by another man who, without being aware of the fact, also chose from the sketches the one which had been already selected by Packer. Search for an individual answering to the description above detailed, but having a small moustache and wearing a black deerstalker felt hat, instead of a soft one, has been made by the police in Whitechapel ever since Saturday, Sept. 1, the day following the Buck's-row tragedy. Information was tendered at the King David's-lane Police Station, at about that time, by a dairyman who has a place of business in Little Turner-street, Commercial-road. It will be recollected that on Saturday, Sept. 1, a desperate assault was reported to have been committed near to the music-hall in Cambridge-heath-road, a man having seized a woman by the throat and dragged her down a court, where he was joined by a gang, one of whom laid a knife across the woman's throat, remarking "we will serve you as we did the others." The particulars of this affair were subsequently stated to be untrue; but the milkman has reason to suppose that the outrage was actually perpetrated, and he suspects that the murderer of Mary Ann Nicholls in Buck's-row had something to do with it. At any rate, upon that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire. He was in a hurry, and he asked for a pennyworth of milk, with which he was served, and he drank it down at a gulp. Asking permission to go into the yard or shed, he went there, but the dairyman caught a glimpse of something white, and, having suspicions, he rejoined the man in the shed, and was surprised to observe that he had covered up his trousers with a pair of white over-alls, such as engineers wear. The man had a staring look, and appeared greatly agitated. He made a movement forward, and the brim of his hard felt hat struck the dairyman, who is therefore sure of the kind that he was wearing. In a hurried manner the stranger took out of a black shiny bag, which was on the ground, a white jacket and rapidly put it on, completely hiding his cutaway black coat, remarking meanwhile, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it?" although the subject had not been previously mentioned. Without making a pause the suspicious person caught up his bag, which was still open, and rushed into the street, towards Shadwell, saying, "I think I've got a clue!" The matter was reported to the police, and although strict watch has been maintained for the reappearance of the man he has not been seen in the street since. He is said to have had a dark complexion, such as a seafaring man acquires. The style of collar that he was then wearing was of the turn-down pattern. He had no marked American accent, and his general appearance was that of a clerk or student whose beard had been allowed three days' growth. His hair was dark, and his eyes large and staring. The portrait gives, according to the statement of the witness, a good approximate idea of his look. The bag carried by the young man, whose age the dairyman places at twenty-eight, is stated to have been provided with a lock at the top, near the handle, and was made, as stated, of a black glistening material.

Here are reports of a hard felt deerstalker hat as described by PC Smith, the staring eyes and the black shiny bag. I wonder what Leon Goldstein looked like?

Best regards, George

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Written by someone ~ 5"3".

Same height as the man Elizabeth Long saw talking to Annie Chapman.

So, we're looking for a short fella, habitué of the area, may have had cause to have a piece of chalk on him (like a lecturer, for example), but who also was so adept at surgery, he could work in darkness, "as if by feel"? Seems a long shot ticking those boxes... especially if said individual was also a specialist in kidneys.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Jeff.

I wrote "assaulted", I meant "accosted", but yes, he has been known as the Bethnal Green Botherer. Odd that he should appear at the end of the street talking to Kelly moments before she is murdered.

Yes Jeff, I picked up on the stagger of BS-man that could be described as "an awkward gait", it's just that I would have to dismiss Parcel-man & Packers-man, which I take to be mutually supportive as regards evidence.

Bowyer saw a stranger talking to Kelly on the Wednesday, he had "peculiar eyes", respectably dressed with collar & cuffs, similar to the man described by Packer. (Western Mail, 12 Nov.)
The man with Stride about 11:00pm at the Bricklayer's Arms, was said to have "rather weak eyes", I take Parcel-man seen by PC Smith, and Packer's man, as all the same individual.
Then there's the man seen by Thimbleby at 6:00am on the morning of the Chapman murder, running from Hanbury to Brick Lane, he had a "peculiar gait", and was about 30 yrs old.
Without any names these could all be different individuals, but there are similarities in these various descriptions that mean we shouldn't easily dismiss the possibility they could be the same man.

Hi Wickerman,

The man who accosted Sarah Lewis and her friend or sister was seen talking to two women by a Mrs. Kennedy(probably Lewis using a pseudonym) as she passed the Brittania on the way to the Keyler's on the night Kelly was murdered. She does not say the women was Kelly- just that she was hatless. You are taking Walter Dew's comments that Kelly was often hatless adding 2 +2 and getting 5. Strange that there is no record of the other woman being found or even attempts by Police to trace her if she was with Kelly so close to her death. We cannot know this person was Kelly. It may have been. The liklihood is that it was not.

This Bethnal Green character seems to be someone who liked to approach women who were in pairs. Lewis and her companion, then the hatless women and hers. He is interesting but seems to be someone using a completely different approach to the Ripper. He may have just been s local nuisance.

Bowyer at the Inquest did not mention the Wednesday night incident but said he had last seen her on Wednesday afternoon when he had spoken to her in the Court. I think we can dismiss the press report.

The really big problem for us is we have so little to go on. There were thousands of pages of Ripper enquiries etc that we will never see. For me the best sightings of the Ripper are B.S man and A.K man. If these were different people then for me A.K man is without any doubt the prime suspect.

[DJA]

Written by someone ~ 5"3".

Same height as the man Elizabeth Long saw talking to Annie Chapman.

[spyglass]

I'm wondering what you mean by "low"?

It wasnt written at eye level, more waist height downwards.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,



This is the fellow sometimes referred to as the "Bethnal Green Botherer" isn't it? He's an interesting character, and it would be very interesting if more could be uncovered as to who he was so he could be researched properly.

And interestingly, "an awkward gait" could be misconstrued as being intoxicated, which might allow for BGB = BS from Schwartz's statement too, though it's possible the descriptions differ enough in other ways to make that less compelling. But as witness descriptions can be quite far off the mark, one might not want to dismiss the possibility entirely.

Anyway, he's one of those people that potentially shows up in a few statements that does raise one's curiosity. Who knows, maybe one day a document will surface (the lost suspect file perhaps?) that could put a name to him, and then, as they say, the game will be afoot.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

I wrote "assaulted", I meant "accosted", but yes, he has been known as the Bethnal Green Botherer. Odd that he should appear at the end of the street talking to Kelly moments before she is murdered.

Yes Jeff, I picked up on the stagger of BS-man that could be described as "an awkward gait", it's just that I would have to dismiss Parcel-man & Packers-man, which I take to be mutually supportive as regards evidence.

Bowyer saw a stranger talking to Kelly on the Wednesday, he had "peculiar eyes", respectably dressed with collar & cuffs, similar to the man described by Packer. (Western Mail, 12 Nov.)
The man with Stride about 11:00pm at the Bricklayer's Arms, was said to have "rather weak eyes", I take Parcel-man seen by PC Smith, and Packer's man, as all the same individual.
Then there's the man seen by Thimbleby at 6:00am on the morning of the Chapman murder, running from Hanbury to Brick Lane, he had a "peculiar gait", and was about 30 yrs old.
Without any names these could all be different individuals, but there are similarities in these various descriptions that mean we shouldn't easily dismiss the possibility they could be the same man.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Wickerman,



This is the fellow sometimes referred to as the "Bethnal Green Botherer" isn't it? He's an interesting character, and it would be very interesting if more could be uncovered as to who he was so he could be researched properly.

And interestingly, "an awkward gait" could be misconstrued as being intoxicated, which might allow for BGB = BS from Schwartz's statement too, though it's possible the descriptions differ enough in other ways to make that less compelling. But as witness descriptions can be quite far off the mark, one might not want to dismiss the possibility entirely.

Anyway, he's one of those people that potentially shows up in a few statements that does raise one's curiosity. Who knows, maybe one day a document will surface (the lost suspect file perhaps?) that could put a name to him, and then, as they say, the game will be afoot.

- Jeff

hi jeff
yes ive always been intrigued by this character. he really reminds me of marshalls man.."you would say anything but your prayers".
BGB..."something the ladys dont like".

That jokey taunting yet somewhat ominous tone.