stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello again,

To respond Caz, Ive considered Israels story as potentially valid but not necessarily how or where his interpreter translated it, and I seriously doubt his stated reason for being at that location at that time.

But if his alleged attack took place on the property, just inside the left gate, with Liz standing and being pulled outside the gates by a thug, I could see that scenario. I think the small bruises on her shoulders might represent a thug poking her to emphasize his message, whatever that may be.

That attack would likely end with her murder rather than her getting up just yards from that spot in the street and making her way inside the passage for a second altercation.

Oh...and a last thought, although there is no need for a Jewish based theme to the Berner murder the evening is certainly rife with references to the Jews.

Best regards,

Michael

[curious4]

References?

Hallo Michael,

Hardly a surprise that there were many jewish members of this working men's club - a majority of the working men in the area were jewish.

Cheers,

C4

[Michael W Richards]

Hallo Michael,

Hardly a surprise that there were many jewish members of this working men's club - a majority of the working men in the area were jewish.

Cheers,

C4

Hi C4,

When I said that there were many Jewish references or overtones on this particular night I refer to a murder of a woman on Jewish private property with Jewish Immigrant men in attendance, with predominantly Jewish witnesses, who, at that time, were thought to be the ethnic pool from which Jack swam. A second murder, just around the corner from another Jewish Mens Club, the Imperial, leaves a crime scene that begins in the square and ends up in an area almost exclusively populated by the demographic from which Jack comes. Supposedly. A written message is found that mentions Jews specifically and includes the word blame.

To me is seems that someone involved with one or more of those murders was inciting some kind of response against the Jews, or someone antisemitic who knew about the murders took the opportunity to do so.

Best regards,

Michael

[curious4]

Blame

Hello Michael,

Yes, hundred per cent with you there, I do agree that the killer wanted to implicate the jews. Not with you that it was a jewish club though. Primarily a socialist working men's club and I don't think it was owned by the jews. As I said, I remember reading that the originator of the club was an austrian christian, although I would be hard put to find the reference (been doing a good deal of background reading lately) but will try to find it. Many prominent socialists, among them Besant, spoke at the club and it was as unpopular at the time to speak in favour of workers' rights as it was to be jewish.

Best wishes,
C4

[harry]

Diemschutz does not report any presence in or outside the yard,as he drove up to and into the yard.The yard was dark enough to hide the presence of the killer,reference a witness leavihg through the yard, and Diemschultz having to have light to observe. Schwartz reports 2 men as being in the immediate vicinity.There was time after the Schwartz sighting,and the arrival of Diemschutz,for the situation to change,and to allow for the second person seen by Schwartz to accost Stride.There was ample opportunity for this second person,to have also been the person seen with a woman,possibly Stride,by Brown.That sighting had not shown an aggressive manner on the part of the woman's companion.W hy couldn't this second person have been Stride's killer?

[Michael W Richards]

Diemschutz does not report any presence in or outside the yard,as he drove up to and into the yard.The yard was dark enough to hide the presence of the killer,reference a witness leavihg through the yard, and Diemschultz having to have light to observe. Schwartz reports 2 men as being in the immediate vicinity.There was time after the Schwartz sighting,and the arrival of Diemschutz,for the situation to change,and to allow for the second person seen by Schwartz to accost Stride.There was ample opportunity for this second person,to have also been the person seen with a woman,possibly Stride,by Brown.That sighting had not shown an aggressive manner on the part of the woman's companion.W hy couldn't this second person have been Stride's killer?

Hi Harry,

Well for me, the sighting by Brown is almost certainly of the young couple and not Liz Stride with an unknown man. I believe their statement places them near the spot where he says he saw the couple that included Liz, but he did NOT see any color on Liz Strides breast, a black jacket with a black ankle length skirt beneath it, its hard to imagine that flower arrangement was out on after that sighting.

Your point about that second man is surely possible, if the altercation was presented as described by Swanson and If it was the truth. There need not be any second man in the story of her death, that much is clear, and on a final note, even if any of it was true we still do not know if the two men were in cahoots at all.

Best regards Harry,
Michael

[harry]

Michael,
The time given by Brown,allowing a small error, would fit with Stride's whereabouts.However the young couple,whose presence was given by a reporter,did not testify,nor did the reporter submit a time.So my thinking is that it was Stride and companion.It appears the man was leaning over her,with his hand against the school wall,thereby obscuring her body,she being of slight build and he stocky, the flower would not be seen.
Regards.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,
The time given by Brown,allowing a small error, would fit with Stride's whereabouts.However the young couple,whose presence was given by a reporter,did not testify,nor did the reporter submit a time.So my thinking is that it was Stride and companion.It appears the man was leaning over her,with his hand against the school wall,thereby obscuring her body,she being of slight build and he stocky, the flower would not be seen.
Regards.

That all sounds fair enough Harry, but the young couple were interviewed that night and led the police to believe they were in that area at 12:45am. Fanny saw them earlier. And in my opinion, Brown sees the same 2 later. Why? Because no-one saw a second couple or a single woman after 12:35am. Not even Israel.

If Brown did see Liz and a man, then where are the young couple and why didnt he see them as well?

To believe that Liz was outside the passageway at 12:45 you need to believe Israel, or you need to believe Brown saw Liz, and you need to assume that Fanny, who was at her door off and on for that half hour, missed seeing Liz completely, missed seeing or hearing Israels altercation completely, and missed hearing Spooner run past.

Remember she said she heard bootsteps around that same time? Well that happens to be the time Spooner says he came to see the woman in the passageway, following the men he saw running back to the club.

Best regards Harry,

Michael

[harry]

Wasn't Stride seen alone,in the gateway,before the interaction with the male preeceeding Schwartz along Berner Street.?Seen by Schwartz that is ,according to the evidence given by Schwartz.So the couple seen by Brown,could have moved after Brown passed,with Stide leaving the male on the corner,while she turns into Berber St.

[Michael W Richards]

Wasn't Stride seen alone,in the gateway,before the interaction with the male preeceeding Schwartz along Berner Street.?Seen by Schwartz that is ,according to the evidence given by Schwartz.So the couple seen by Brown,could have moved after Brown passed,with Stide leaving the male on the corner,while she turns into Berber St.

Hi Harry, I would think that if you choose to accept that Israel Schwartz was a honest witness and reported what he saw accurately, then yes, Liz would have been standing alone just outside the gates.

However, we are not obligated to believe a story that was not presented to the jury that the Inquest, and one that came from someone with a personal connection to the Club itself, (a connection may have been discovered between Israel and Woolf Wess), thereby putting his particularly fortuitous tale of gentiles assaulting the woman off premises as less than trustworthy.

To my eye, the last witness we can say with any authority saw Liz Stride alive is likely PC Smith,... as an ex-policeman, I would expect that should please you.

All the best Harry,

Michael

[Wickerman]

However, we are not obligated to believe a story that was not presented to the jury that the Inquest, and one that came from someone with a personal connection to the Club itself,

I'm not sure that finding a connection to the club would have been of any concern. Many of the witnesses were connected to the club.
Why Baxter chose to exclude Schwartz's statement is the real burning question, considering the police (in the figure of Swanson), apparently thought it trustworthy.

(a connection may have been discovered between Israel and Woolf Wess), thereby putting his particularly fortuitous tale of gentiles assaulting the woman off premises as less than trustworthy.

Any such discovery would have been unearthed by the police, yet, as we know, Swanson still trusted Schwartz. So I don't see that as the solution.
And yes, I also agree that the people Brown saw were the two young lovers.

To my eye, the last witness we can say with any authority saw Liz Stride alive is likely PC Smith,...

Agreed.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure that finding a connection to the club would have been of any concern. Many of the witnesses were connected to the club.Why Baxter chose to exclude Schwartz's statement is the real burning question, considering the police (in the figure of Swanson), apparently thought it trustworthy.


Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

I would think if it can be proven, a link between THE key witness and the club itself would change a great deal with respect to Israels assumed veracity. Israels account, or more accurately, the report that included a summary of his statement by Swanson, is without doubt the single most important witness sighting of that night. If it is to be believed that is.

We know that Eagle, Diemshitz, Wess, Lave, Kozebrodski and Heschberg gave statements that night that do not jive with each other, yet all are members statements. We also know that Spooner and Fanny's accounts do not validate the witness accounts from other members. We know that there is no evidence that Israel was at the Inquest, let alone, that he was called to present his sighting details. We also know that not one other witness statement verified anything that Israel claimed on Sunday night.

It seems easy to understand, to me anyway, that the Club could have closed for good that night, had there been any evidence that suggested Liz was killed by someone at the club on club property. The men there were known as anarchists, and a few key witnesses get arrested for assaulting the police with clubs in that same yard the following Spring.

If they suspected that Israel gave his account so that any suspicion would be cast off the club itself and onto a antisemitic thug type gentile passing by the gates, based on his acquaintance with Senior Club members or perhaps even his own membership there, then they could not present his evidence, potentially crucial, at the Inquest.

In the case of Wess, Lave, Morris and Louis, their statements did not include any other bystanders, and they all suggested no activity just inside or outside the gates. To me, thats why they were allowed to speak,...they presented no possible suspect for the crimes.

Israel did.

[harry]

I believe Schwartz and Brown were telling the truth in so far as the people they saw in that immediate area,and near to the time they stated,and that their stories dovetail to the e xtent that only three persons,Stride,BS,and Pipeman were present.I will not argue the point,that is how I see it.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe Schwartz and Brown were telling the truth in so far as the people they saw in that immediate area,and near to the time they stated,and that their stories dovetail to the e xtent that only three persons,Stride,BS,and Pipeman were present.I will not argue the point,that is how I see it.

As is your right of course Harry.

For me, any witness that does not have a single shred of outside evidence to support their claim, quite likely has a personal relationship of some sort with the management of an anarchists club when a murder is committed on the club grounds, and is absent in any records that would lend credence to the belief that he was a witness used at the Inquest, (which by his story, if believed, he would have to have been...he says he sees the victim assaulted just before her murder), is not a witness to place my trust in.

Too much is unknown about Israel, and what is known, cannot be confirmed using any other witness.

Cheers Harry.