stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[Gene Lewis]

and, euhh, sorry, me gain... what about my thread ? Is it definitely unbelievable for almost everybody thinking Jack - or the man who killed Long Liz - to be stuck in the court while Diemschutz went up for help ?

[Michael W Richards]

and, euhh, sorry, me gain... what about my thread ? Is it definitely unbelievable for almost everybody thinking Jack - or the man who killed Long Liz - to be stuck in the court while Diemschutz went up for help ?

Its a contentious murder scene Gene so forgive us if we reviewed aspects of the murder that didnt specifically relate to your question.

To answer your question, had the killer been inside the yard, not the passageway, when Diemshutz arrived...at whatever time ......the ajar side door would have been between him and the gates, and as soon as the discovery is made the cottagers that were awake and the club members inside crowded around the dead woman. If he was not a club attendee that night he would surely be noticed as he tried to pass.

He could hide in the unused stables, or in the office on the second floor...the lock was broken to it...but then it would just be a matter of time before they came upon him as the yard itself was searched.

Plus....why is the killer in the yard when Liz is almost in the street..why would he flee back into a dead end when escape is 2 steps away? All he has to do is bolt by Louis.

Best regards,

Michael

[Wickerman]

.... Is it definitely unbelievable for almost everybody thinking Jack - or the man who killed Long Liz - to be stuck in the court while Diemschutz went up for help ?

The Killer could have been caught in the yard (further up in the shadows), and made his escape when Diemschitz stepped into the Club, that would be cutting it tight.
More likely the killer left the yard through the gates then southward towards Fairclough St. when he heard the clip-clop of an approaching cart.

If there was an exit at the bottom end of the yard, through a broken window or unlocked door, it might have given him access to Batty Gdns. For him to have known this would mean he was very familiar with the area.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

If there was an exit at the bottom end of the yard, through a broken window or unlocked door, it might have given him access to Batty Gdns. For him to have known this would mean he was very familiar with the area.

Regards, Jon S.

I have read that yards like this one often had ladders at the rear for emergencies Jon, but I dont recall reading that this particular one was so equipped.

Cheers,
Michael

[curious4]

Hello all,

I feel compelled to point out that the club in Berner street was not a jewish club, but a socialist working men's club. Besant spoke there, among many others, and I seem to remember reading that an Austrian christian was the original founder of the club. Anyone promoting better treatment and pay for workers was regarded as a dangerous radical by the establishment at the time.

By the way, I do agree that Liz was waiting for someone and also that Jack probably was hiding in the shadows and made his escape in the confusion after the body was found.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

Por que?

Hello C4. Do you think there was any particular reason why "Jack" was hiding in the shadows of such a busy venue, and on a night with a meeting recently in progress?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

In the shadows

Hallo Lynn,

Far as I can see most of the action was inside the club and the yard was relatively quiet. If I remember correctly only one person passed through it at about the time for the murder and it was very dark. Jack (yes, Jack) seemed to have been a risk taker, in fact, as I see it, risk taking was part of the "fun". Mitre square wasn't exactly deserted either!

Over to you! (Italy was glorious, by the way).

Best wishes,
C4
PS Why? Interrupted and no time to make a getaway until Diemschutz had legged it into the club?

[lynn cates]

Jack

Hello C4. Thanks. I'm delighted that you enjoyed yourself.

If I recall properly, there were two in the yard as early as 12.40. And, quite obviously, IF there were someone "lurking in the shadows" he could not know who would be coming and going.

I'm not sure about this "Jack" fellow. How could one ascertain whether he were a risk taker?

Of course, the link to Mitre Square is tenuous--assuming, as it does, that the perpetrator were the same bloke as in Dutfield's yard.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Lurking

Hello Lynn,

He took risks. That points to a risk taker as I see it.

If he had been "escorting" Liz he could have left her outside to wait saying he had to make use of the facilities until the coast was clear, perhaps.

A policeman checking the square at regular and fairly short intervals, another living in the square with full view of the murder site, a watchman who could have come out at any time, not to speak of people coming out of the club in Duke street. Not exactly deserted or risk free.

Cheers,
C4

[lynn cates]

personality type

Hello C4. Thanks.

"He took risks. That points to a risk taker as I see it."

He? I can think of at least two other possible pronouns. And, again, this assumes a link in the crimes. I would prefer that link to be established first. Besides, if one is in a "risky situation" one may always ask, "Was that by accident or design?" If the former, perhaps not a risk taker after all.

"If he had been "escorting" Liz he could have left her outside to wait saying he had to make use of the facilities until the coast was clear, perhaps."

Alright. If the chap whom you assumed to be with Liz escorted her, he could indeed have used the facilities. But why not the outdoor facilities?

And was the the same chap seen by PC Smith at 12.35?

"A policeman checking the square at regular and fairly short intervals, another living in the square with full view of the murder site, a watchman who could have come out at any time, not to speak of people coming out of the club in Duke street. Not exactly deserted or risk free."

Now we have moved to Mitre Square? Very well. But not sure why. At any rate, I think you wish to establish that ANY of the WCM could have been discovered in progress. And I would not contend that point.

But I cannot find a good line of either deductive nor yet inductive reasoning to lead to a conclusion with a single perpetrator who fits a certain personality type--try though I may.

Cheers.
LC

[Gene Lewis]

Thank you Lynn, Michael and C4 for bouncing again on my original thread...

He could have been stuck in Dutfield's Yard, although it's a minor possibility: is that correct to the major feeling of the forum?

[curious4]

There can be only one....

Hello Lynn,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree about there being several killers. I am firmly on the side of one, and not only because the police at the time were of that opinion, although they must have had good reason to think so. We don't have access to all of the police documents of the time, so we don't know what else led them to this conclusion, but common sense dictates that if they had any way even to hint that Liz's murder was the result of a domestic, they would have done so in order to stem the rising panic.

Misunderstood you I think as regards Mitre square, thought you meant that it was less risky.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Waiting in the yard?

Thank you Lynn, Michael and C4 for bouncing again on my original thread...

He could have been stuck in Dutfield's Yard, although it's a minor possibility: is that correct to the major feeling of the forum?

Hello Gene,

I think there is a good chance Jack left Liz outside and waited until the coast was clear. (I have said it before, and will say it again... lol)

Cheers,
C4

[Wickerman]

If he had been "escorting" Liz he could have left her outside to wait saying he had to make use of the facilities until the coast was clear, perhaps.

Or, had Liz and her escort been walking down Berner St. and he stepped into the dark yard beckoning her to follow him?

Sarah Lewis had a similar encounter.
Quote:
"He followed us and spoke to us, and wanted us to follow him into an entry."

Mrs Kennedy describes it a little different.
"...and led the way into a very dark thoroughfare "at the back of the workhouse," inviting them to follow, which they did. He then pushed open a small door in a pair of large gates, and requested one of them to follow him,.."

So had our killer already stepped within the shadows of Dutfields Yard, and beckoned Liz to follow him? It was at this point she was approached by BS-man, "Jack" saw the assault play out in front of him... but no-one could see "Jack".

Regards, Jon S.

Will you walk into my parlour?" said the Spider to the Fly,
'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to shew when you are there."
Oh no, no," said the little Fly, "to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can ne'er come down again."
Mary Howitt, 1829.

Alas poor Liz had not the wisdom of the Fly.

[curious4]

In the shadows

Hello Wickerman,

Could be, but in that case, if he'd been just inside the door, wouldn't she have called out to him for help when she was thrown to the ground? I'm more with the "wait here for me m'dear, have to see a man about a dog" scenario, waiting for the coast to be clear before he quickly pulls her in by grabbing her scarf from behind. Don't think he would have been waiting in the yard for a victim to come past, but maybe.

Best wishes,
C4