stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[lynn cates]

Jewish Standard

Hello (again) Colin, Neil. To get some idea of the animosity towards the Berner club, try the following--especially last line.

(Snippet is from "The Jewish Standard" 23 November, 1888. Note the German rather than Yiddish spelling of the paper.)

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

How about a bit of unpopular speculation for a Friday afternoon?

What if one of the men Stride had been in company with earlier that evening was her killer and told her it would be to her advantage to meet him by Dutfield's Yard around 12.45?

She's waiting there for him when loutish BS man comes along and manhandles her, but she manages to get rid of him and composes herself again, takes out her cachous and continues to wait. To her relief, fancy man then turns up, but before she even knows what's happening he grabs her and slices her throat - right there in the entrance to a Jewish club.

Mission accomplished, if he wanted to keep the focus firmly on Jews in the wake of Hanbury St. Just look at how the focus remains on that club and its members to this day, when there is no evidence that anyone connected with it was actually involved in Stride's murder; no evidence that any of them knew her beforehand, or knew she was there before her body was found on the premises.

He could have been in control of this location after all, with a simple bit of planning, just as the Mitre Square killer was in control of where he left the apron piece - in another Jewish entrance.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

How about a bit of unpopular speculation for a Friday afternoon?

What if one of the men Stride had been in company with earlier that evening was her killer and told her it would be to her advantage to meet him by Dutfield's Yard around 12.45?

Someone like 'Brighteyes', from the Bricklayers Arms?, but the Schwartz story makes this scenario difficult because timing is too tight to make two liason's within 15 minutes believable.

Regards, Jon S.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello Colin, Neil. The regular club members (anarchists) would not be observing the Sabbath. And that was one point of contention with Orthodox Anglo-Jewry.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

I would agree that the members of the Berner Street Club were not observant Jews and therefore were unlikely to abide by the rules of the Sabbath. Thanks for posting the snippet from the The Jewish Standard of 23 November 1888 which demonstrates the animosity of strict orthodox Jews such as Member of Parliament Samuel Montagu toward the anti-religous nature of the club. As you will know, Montagu was president of the Federation of Synagogues, which represented about 24,000 people in the East End. See this testimony by Montagu in a 1902 hearing of the Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. Note p. 611 where Montagu characterizes certain streets of Whitechapel, particularly Thrawl Street and Flower and Dean Street, as being too dangerous for a single policeman to walk down in 1885 but that the situation had improved by 1902, to the point that he marvelled at the "wonderful change" that had come over the neighborhood.

All the best

Chris

[lynn cates]

not bad

Hello Caroline. Interesting.

“What if one of the men Stride had been in company with earlier that evening was her killer . . .”

Sounds good so far.

“. . . and told her it would be to her advantage to meet him by Dutfield's Yard around 12.45?”

Well, I could certainly live with that. Of course, this might need some tweaking. Liz needs to be doing something in the meantime. Also, her beau will need a decent story to entice Liz—assuming, of course, that Liz is a fairly clever lady.

“She's waiting there for him when loutish BS man comes along and manhandles her, but she manages to get rid of him and composes herself again, takes out her cachous and continues to wait. To her relief, fancy man then turns up, but before she even knows what's happening he grabs her and slices her throat - right there in the entrance to a Jewish club.”

It would help if she were pacing back and forth between, say, the back door and the gates. She heads towards the far western limit of her pacing, turns east and bumps into her beau. “Ah, there you are!” They head east together—then he strikes just west of the opened gate.

“Mission accomplished . . .”

If you REALLY mean this, I am ALL attention. Of course, we might need to spell out what that mission was.

”. . . if he wanted to keep the focus firmly on Jews in the wake of Hanbury St. Just look at how the focus remains on that club and its members to this day, when there is no evidence that anyone connected with it was actually involved in Stride's murder; no evidence that any of them knew her beforehand, or knew she was there before her body was found on the premises.”

Sounds almost like the “provocatory act” which I have been researching for the last 2-3 years. I approve.

“He could have been in control of this location after all, with a simple bit of planning, just as the Mitre Square killer was in control of where he left the apron piece - in another Jewish entrance.”

Very well. And I appreciate the way you refer to the OTHER killer as “the Mitre Square killer.”

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

history

Hello Chris. Thanks. Yes, there is a good bit in "The Jewish Standard" about the "Berner Club." One may also find snippets from the rabbis regarding them.

And, even if we never discover the truth behind the WCM, at least we are certainly furthering Jewish history in Great Britain by our collective research.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

How about a bit of unpopular speculation for a Friday afternoon?

What if one of the men Stride had been in company with earlier that evening was her killer and told her it would be to her advantage to meet him by Dutfield's Yard around 12.45?

She's waiting there for him when loutish BS man comes along and manhandles her, but she manages to get rid of him and composes herself again, takes out her cachous and continues to wait. To her relief, fancy man then turns up, but before she even knows what's happening he grabs her and slices her throat - right there in the entrance to a Jewish club.

Mission accomplished, if he wanted to keep the focus firmly on Jews in the wake of Hanbury St. Just look at how the focus remains on that club and its members to this day, when there is no evidence that anyone connected with it was actually involved in Stride's murder; no evidence that any of them knew her beforehand, or knew she was there before her body was found on the premises.

He could have been in control of this location after all, with a simple bit of planning, just as the Mitre Square killer was in control of where he left the apron piece - in another Jewish entrance.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

I was surprised to read the above from you.

You suggested an interesting scenario resting upon the premise that A) she was there to meet someone, B) that the Schwartz story was indeed a part of that night, and C) that the second murder had a second murderer.

I dont know why she had to have been in the company of the killer earlier, and I dont see what the BSM story offers, other than a reason to gather herself afterwards with cashous, .. in the real story I guess Fancy Pants would most probably be the man who said he was returning to the club, obviously for some reason, right around the 12:40-45 mark.

I lean towards a misunderstanding with a thug because of reasons Ive previously stated. Something unexpected, quick and without further adieu. The club knew their reputation with the neighbors and the local gendarme and they knew, as soon as someone involved with Club management was aware of the situation, that they would need to present the "facts" so there would be no suspicion upon themselves.

No-one needed to be framing the Jews, although an interesting idea as I said,..but the Jews did need to frame their stories with caution.

For me, the only way I see Israel as valid is if perhaps his altercation took place as he left via the side door and went towards the gates, the killer and Liz almost behind the left gate. And when she goes down she stays down. If Israel was at that location at that time on that night it was almost certainly not to check to see if his wife had moved their meager possessions in the 12 hours since he left.

All the best,

Michael

[Cogidubnus]

I still reckon Liz shows all the signs of someone moving from one relationship into another...she's taken her most valued possessions out of her home and deposited them elsewhere (why?)...she's dressed in her best, and wearing a flower (again why?)...she's heard saying "not tonight" or close enough, (why turn down a potential client?), she's taken (or is about to take) a breath-freshener...she's waiting around in an uncharacteristic place for whoring unless she knows someone in the club...

I've no ulterior motive here...it's just the way it seems...the odds are she'd been picked up by someone in the club....

Dave

[Bridewell]

I still reckon Liz shows all the signs of someone moving from one relationship into another...she's taken her most valued possessions out of her home and deposited them elsewhere (why?)...she's dressed in her best, and wearing a flower (again why?)...she's heard saying "not tonight" or close enough, (why turn down a potential client?), she's taken (or is about to take) a breath-freshener...she's waiting around in an uncharacteristic place for whoring unless she knows someone in the club...

I've no ulterior motive here...it's just the way it seems...the odds are she'd been picked up by someone in the club....

Dave

Hi Dave,

And we know that she spoke Yiddish, so common sense suggests that she spent quite a bit of time in the company of Jewish people. If Schwartz is legit, he ran away while Stride was under attack. There is confusion over whether it was BS or Pipeman who shouted 'Lipski'. Might it have been Stride herself? She spoke Yiddish; Schwartz was very obviously Jewish; 'Lipski' was not only a term of abuse, but also, I believe, sometimes used as an accusation of cowardice. Just a thought.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Dave. You were doing fine until you got to the probability (heh-heh).

Seriously, those are some of the problems and questions I have.

Wish I knew the answers.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

There is confusion over whether it was BS or Pipeman who shouted 'Lipski'

There was no confusion as to who shouted the epitaph according to Swanson and Abberline, just uncertainty over who it was addressed to... at least as far as Abberline was concerned.

[Phil Carter]

How about a bit of unpopular speculation for a Friday afternoon?

What if one of the men Stride had been in company with earlier that evening was her killer and told her it would be to her advantage to meet him by Dutfield's Yard around 12.45?

She's waiting there for him when loutish BS man comes along and manhandles her, but she manages to get rid of him and composes herself again, takes out her cachous and continues to wait. To her relief, fancy man then turns up, but before she even knows what's happening he grabs her and slices her throat - right there in the entrance to a Jewish club.

Mission accomplished, if he wanted to keep the focus firmly on Jews in the wake of Hanbury St. Just look at how the focus remains on that club and its members to this day, when there is no evidence that anyone connected with it was actually involved in Stride's murder; no evidence that any of them knew her beforehand, or knew she was there before her body was found on the premises.

He could have been in control of this location after all, with a simple bit of planning, just as the Mitre Square killer was in control of where he left the apron piece - in another Jewish entrance.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caroline,

That tinge of a rueful smile hides a jab methinks.
Obviously I see the Jewish thread of dangling cotton in the speculation.

Can you then point out the Jewish connection to an Irish woman in Millers Court- No.13 to be precise?

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

There was no confusion as to who shouted the epitaph according to Swanson and Abberline, just uncertainty over who it was addressed to... at least as far as Abberline was concerned.

Epitaph? What a grave accusation!

Dave

[Hunter]

LOL....

I meant to say 'expletive' or use Abberline's term 'ejaculation.'

Was a long day.

Reckon that strikes me off the list of academic researchers.

Think I'll go study the effects of porn being printed in Braille.

[lynn cates]

Kos

Hello Cris.

"Think I'll go study the effects of porn being printed in Braille."

Hmm, doing some research on Kosminski?

Cheers.
LC