stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[curious4]

Spider/fly

Thanks for the verse, might have read the whole poem at sometime, but don't remember it. Now if I can only trace the one about the merry musician and the crocodile...

Regards,
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Hallo Lynn,

Far as I can see most of the action was inside the club and the yard was relatively quiet. If I remember correctly only one person passed through it at about the time for the murder and it was very dark. Jack (yes, Jack) seemed to have been a risk taker, in fact, as I see it, risk taking was part of the "fun". Mitre square wasn't exactly deserted either!

Over to you! (Italy was glorious, by the way).

Best wishes,
C4
PS Why? Interrupted and no time to make a getaway until Diemschutz had legged it into the club?

Hi C4,

The club members in attendance were mostly upstairs, but there were around 30 people onsite at that time, plus cottagers, plus Mrs D and her helper in the kitchen by the side door which was ajar. Many neighbors had stated that often after meetings that the yard was full of "low men and women"...yet on this night we are told it was empty. By Lave who was in the passage at 12:30 until 12:40 by the gates, and Eagle, who says he returned and entered via the side door at 12:40. Both members. Louis says he arrived at 1. Club Steward. Israel says he was outside at 12:45....possible connection to Arbeter Fraint owner Wess. Club member.

PC Smith, at the scene until around 12:35,....Fanny, at her door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, when she was mostly at her door until 1am,.. Spooner, who stated he came into the yard at around 12:40 by his accounting of time, and Brown, who passes by the end of Berner at 12:45am, ...none of them saw or heard Eagle, Lave, Wess or Diemshutz. Only one saw Goldstein.

I dont see the fellow who killed Polly or Annie as a risk taker myself, just someone who didnt comprehend the gravity of his actions or more importantly, his illness. The move to the backyard of Hanbury suggests a man avoiding risk of interruption actually.

Best regards,

Michael

[curious4]

Risk taker?

Hello Michael,

The meeting wasn't over, they were still "singing songs in the russian language" - which apparently
were enjoyed by some of the neighbours at least. After the meeting, yes, there probably were a lot of people in the yard, but not while it was still going on.

As to Hanbury street being less risky, I can't agree, there were far more people around there, both in the house, next door and in the street.

Regards,
C4

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

Could be, but in that case, if he'd been just inside the door, wouldn't she have called out to him for help when she was thrown to the ground?

...but, isn't that what happened? she was heard to scream "but not very loudly",.... is that because someone was close by?

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

The meeting wasn't over, they were still "singing songs in the russian language" - which apparently
were enjoyed by some of the neighbours at least. After the meeting, yes, there probably were a lot of people in the yard, but not while it was still going on.

As to Hanbury street being less risky, I can't agree, there were far more people around there, both in the house, next door and in the street.

Regards,
C4

Hi C4,

Surely you would agree that killing someone in a back yard at night, regardless of how many people were in the house or could see into the yard, is apt to be less prone to interruption than on a public sidewalk on a public street that is open ended.

Also, the meeting itself was in fact over by 12:30...it ended between 11 and 11:30pm. The men singing upstairs at 12:30.. (the meeting earlier was downstairs)...were members that stayed after the meeting ended to drink and sing, or members that returned to the club to catch a nightcap and see some friends. Among the returning members are Isaac Kozebrodski who says he returned to the club at "half past 11" and 10 minutes later was called to the passageway, and Morris Eagle, the nights speaker, who says he dropped off his date for the meeting and returned. He doesnt say why.

Best regards,

Michael

[Cogidubnus]

The meeting wasn't over, they were still "singing songs in the russian language" - which apparently
were enjoyed by some of the neighbours at least. After the meeting, yes, there probably were a lot of people in the yard, but not while it was still going on.

Sorry but my understanding was that the formal meeting (to discuss why Jews should be socialists if I recall it correctly) was indeed over, and the majority of the attendees had already left. I believe it was a minority who remained on the premises for a post-meeting knees-up...so at some stage, (as the formal meeting broke up) there would certainly have been a fair number of people processing through the yard...albeit perhaps haphazarly, rather than in an orchestrated rush... anyone got any ideas on the time this exodus might've started?

All the best

Dave

[curious4]

The yard

Hello Dave,

Could it be that many were there for the singing? If the yard had been full of people I don't think there would have been a murder. Wouldn't the passing policeman have noticed a yard full of people, especially as the club was unpopular with the police?

Wouldn't the majority of members have left by the front door? I agree that those who were there for the discussion would have left earlier but those who enjoyed the singing would have stayed on and I count that as part of the evening, as entertainment is part of working men's clubs today.

The only rush there might have been was that for the loos afterwards.

All good wishes,
C4

[curious4]

In the yard?

Hi C4,

Surely you would agree that killing someone in a back yard at night, regardless of how many people were in the house or could see into the yard, is apt to be less prone to interruption than on a public sidewalk on a public street that is open ended.

Also, the meeting itself was in fact over by 12:30...it ended between 11 and 11:30pm. The men singing upstairs at 12:30.. (the meeting earlier was downstairs)...were members that stayed after the meeting ended to drink and sing, or members that returned to the club to catch a nightcap and see some friends. Among the returning members are Isaac Kozebrodski who says he returned to the club at "half past 11" and 10 minutes later was called to the passageway, and Morris Eagle, the nights speaker, who says he dropped off his date for the meeting and returned. He doesnt say why.

Best regards,

Michael

Hello Michael,

Of course you are right, and the yard was very dark. I was referring to Hanbury street as opposed to Mitre Square in my earlier post.

I find it quite feasible that Morris would drop off his girlfriend and then return to listen to the singing - perhaps she had a curfew lol.

Everyone in the club, as far as we know, was searched and questioned directly afterwards and had a stranger been there, or had anyone who was a member had managed to get away without being questioned I think someone would have reported it. The club had enough problems with the police, as did anyone who openly supported socialism, and the last thing the members would have wanted was a gruesome murder just outside.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hello Wickerman,

Wouldn't she have called his name if she had thought he was just inside the gate?
Think I would have, although my days of hanging about dark yards at night are long gone. And a scream, loud or not, is different to a call.

Best wishes,
C4

[caz]

Someone like 'Brighteyes', from the Bricklayers Arms?, but the Schwartz story makes this scenario difficult because timing is too tight to make two liason's within 15 minutes believable.

Regards, Jon S.

Q: How many men could an East End unfortunate accost in 15 minutes, standing in the same place?

A: As many men who could have passed by that way in 15 minutes.

Q: How many men could accost/shove/insult/ignore said unfortunate in 15 minutes?

A: The same number.

15 minutes is a long old time in this context and I have no doubt these women had nightly unpleasant encounters too numerous to mention.

I'm equally open, however, to BS man himself going on to kill Stride when he was finally alone with her, but not hanging around in case Schwartz had fled incontinently to alert a copper.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

“. . . and told her it would be to her advantage to meet him by Dutfield's Yard around 12.45?”

Well, I could certainly live with that. Of course, this might need some tweaking. Liz needs to be doing something in the meantime. Also, her beau will need a decent story to entice Liz—assuming, of course, that Liz is a fairly clever lady.

Hmmm, Liz only needs to have been on the lookout to make another sixpence to replace the one she must have spent in the hours leading up to her death. (Unless of course she still had the money on her when she was attacked and her killer ended up sixpence the richer.)

“Mission accomplished . . .”

If you REALLY mean this, I am ALL attention. Of course, we might need to spell out what that mission was.

Well, Lynn, my suggestion was that he may have "wanted to keep the focus firmly on Jews in the wake of Hanbury St". If that was his mission it's working rather well these days - at least the focus seems to be on the club members for some reason, and away from a non-Jewish, knife-happy predator. And that could only be to the killer's advanatge if he had absolutely no connection with any of those members.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz,

I was surprised to read the above from you.

I don't know why, Mike. I've put forward loads of different ideas over the years regarding the Stride murder.

You suggested an interesting scenario resting upon the premise that A) she was there to meet someone, B) that the Schwartz story was indeed a part of that night, and C) that the second murder had a second murderer.

Did I? That's news to me. I merely floated the idea that her killer may have induced her to be at that location, so he could do the deed there to make things look black for the club. Schwartz's story need have no impact on that, true or false, and the second murder need not have had a second murderer either.

I dont know why she had to have been in the company of the killer earlier...

Oh for God's sake, Mike, it was just my little bit of idle speculation, for the purposes of which they did meet earlier and she agreed to meet him by the club at a time that suited him. He may have wanted to avoid being seen walking along the street with her in the minutes leading up to murdering her.

I lean towards a misunderstanding with a thug because of reasons Ive previously stated. Something unexpected, quick and without further adieu.

I think you meant without further 'ado'. And I agree it could very well have gone down like that. Saturday night thug comes along, tanked up and moody, sees Stride standing there and shoves her, then sees Schwartz gawping and curses him and without further ado pushes off down the street. Thus Stride is left shaken but not stirred to encounter the man who kills her with one sweep of his sharp knife.

But of course, only Schwartz gives us a 'thug' to work with, so if you doubt his story.... ?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caroline,

That tinge of a rueful smile hides a jab methinks.
Obviously I see the Jewish thread of dangling cotton in the speculation.

Can you then point out the Jewish connection to an Irish woman in Millers Court- No.13 to be precise?

Best wishes

Phil

Why would there need to be a specific Jewish connection by the time of the Kelly murder, Phil?

This is like the spurious argument that the killer didn't write the GSG because he could have left a similar message in Kelly's room but didn't; he didn't try to decapitate Chapman because he could have done it to Kelly but didn't - etc etc.

The immediate wake of the Leather Apron scare would have been the time for a non-Jewish killer to keep the focus on, or bring the focus back to a Jewish one. A month later, after the 'Juwes' had been big news and the killer was no nearer being caught, it would arguably not have been the big issue that it was towards the end of September. Besides, over-egging the pudding would have worked against him.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

Why would there need to be a specific Jewish connection by the time of the Kelly murder, Phil?

This is like the spurious argument that the killer didn't write the GSG because he could have left a similar message in Kelly's room but didn't; he didn't try to decapitate Chapman because he could have done it to Kelly but didn't - etc etc.

The immediate wake of the Leather Apron scare would have been the time for a non-Jewish killer to keep the focus on, or bring the focus back to a Jewish one. A month later, after the 'Juwes' had been big news and the killer was no nearer being caught, it would arguably not have been the big issue that it was towards the end of September. Besides, over-egging the pudding would have worked against him.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caroline,

I agree with you.. but I was just following your line of comment. No need for a Jewish connection at all!..

best wishes

Phil

[curious4]

It was adieu for Liz, anyway!