Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

[Wickerman]

Correct, but we are talking about two lamps.
The lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage is often debated, and that one was also not bright enough to illuminate the square - it being more than 72 ft across.
The fact there was also a lamp at the Duke St. end (shown in the press sketch) is not often talked about, or was not always known.

[Wickerman]

Also, consistent with the story told by Blenkingsop, and the memoirs of Major Smith, we have a few words by Insp. McWilliam:

".....acting upon the stringent orders issued by the Commissioner with a view to preventing if possible a repetition of the murders which had previously been committed in Whitechapel and to keep close observation upon all prostitutes frequenting public-houses and walking the streets, extra men in plain clothes have been employed by this department since August last to patrol the Eastern portion of the city."
27 Oct. 1888.

[Simon Wood]

Two gas lamps in Mitre Square were approximately 50 and 60 feet from the murder spot [see Foster scale plans], the nearest showing some “deficiency of light.” The body also lay in the shadow of a third gas lamp, affixed to the south-west corner of Mitre Square and Mitre Street.

[Michael W Richards]

I think she was just talking s***.

c.d.

I cant imagine what she would gain by saying something like that, and its interesting that you acknowledge that she likely had such a conversation with the landlady as described. Usually lies tend to serve some purpose, to evade blame, to manipulate, etc....unless of course youre dealing with a pathological case. Stating that you have in effect "the goods" on a killer and that you intend to expose him seems a tad reckless to me. Unless she was perhaps bragging about what she felt might be her soon to come financial salvation.

IF she did have any arrangement to meet someone near Mitre Square that night, which is quite possible, then isn't it also possible that the city police had some business with that square that night? I find detective alley patrols after midnight hard to imagine without any specific or imminent reason to do so. There had been no Ripper violence in that part of town, it would seem the duties the officers had were set before anyone knew anything of a murder in Berner Street. So why detectives in alleys? Why did no-ones beat involve the carriageway entrance to the square? Is it just coincidence that the murder scene was viewable from Pearce's window?

What if the person Kate intended to finger was a dirty cop? Just exploring some possibilities now, not accusing anyone of anything....that's a notation for Monty.

[Joshua Rogan]

Possibly nobody at all. What Morris is said to have said has more than a whiff of post-hoc bragging about it.

Here's what a woman (in the lodging house used by Eddowes) said to a reporter in the wake of Kate's murder;

""If I meet Jack the Ripper to-night," she continued, "it will be Oh, Dolly Daisy, up this way." Then, turning fiercely upon me she cried, "If I thought you were any confederate of him, do you know what I'd do? I'd cut you open with this pot," and she flourished a pewter tankard, from which she had been drinking, in such dangerous proximity to my face that I thought it advisable to get beyond the reach of her arm. "

[Sam Flynn]

Here's what a woman (in the lodging house used by Eddowes) said to a reporter in the wake of Kate's murder;

""If I meet Jack the Ripper to-night," she continued, "it will be Oh, Dolly Daisy, up this way." Then, turning fiercely upon me she cried, "If I thought you were any confederate of him, do you know what I'd do? I'd cut you open with this pot," and she flourished a pewter tankard, from which she had been drinking, in such dangerous proximity to my face that I thought it advisable to get beyond the reach of her arm. "

I wouldn't fancy Jack's chances against an opponent like that!

[FISHY1118]

Heres the problem with Eddows and Lawende , how the hell can we place Eddows 100 per cent, with out a single doubt, at the entrance of church passage with a man on the testimony of Lawende. if i dressed in her clothes and stood the same distance away from him WITH MY BACK TO HIM, YES WITH MY BACK TO HIM. WOULD I BE EDDOWS TOO? REMEMBER ALL HE SAID WAS ''THE CLOTHING ON THE DEAD BODY WAS BLACK AND SIMILAR TO THE CLOTHING HE SAW ON THE WOMEN AT MITRE SQUARE AND THAT WAS THE FULL EXTENT OF HIS IDENTITY.'' CHIEF INSPECTOR DONALD SWANSTON 6TH NOV 1888 . NO HEIGHT, WEIGHT ,HAIR COLOR, APPROX AGE DISTINGUISHING FEATURES . NOTHING.... IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYONE.

[Sam Flynn]

It would help if you eased off the Caps Lock, Fishy. Thanks

[FISHY1118]

will do sam

[c.d.]

I cant imagine what she would gain by saying something like that, and its interesting that you acknowledge that she likely had such a conversation with the landlady as described. Usually lies tend to serve some purpose, to evade blame, to manipulate, etc....unless of course youre dealing with a pathological case. Stating that you have in effect "the goods" on a killer and that you intend to expose him seems a tad reckless to me. Unless she was perhaps bragging about what she felt might be her soon to come financial salvation.

IF she did have any arrangement to meet someone near Mitre Square that night, which is quite possible, then isn't it also possible that the city police had some business with that square that night? I find detective alley patrols after midnight hard to imagine without any specific or imminent reason to do so. There had been no Ripper violence in that part of town, it would seem the duties the officers had were set before anyone knew anything of a murder in Berner Street. So why detectives in alleys? Why did no-ones beat involve the carriageway entrance to the square? Is it just coincidence that the murder scene was viewable from Pearce's window?

What if the person Kate intended to finger was a dirty cop? Just exploring some possibilities now, not accusing anyone of anything....that's a notation for Monty.

Hello Michael,

You left out a motive -- wanting to seem important and to come off as somebody who knows something others don't.

Could she have known who the Ripper was or have been able to make a very educated guess? Certainly. I simply think it more likely that she was just talking trash.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Michael,

You left out a motive -- wanting to seem important and to come off as somebody who knows something others don't.

Could she have known who the Ripper was or have been able to make a very educated guess? Certainly. I simply think it more likely that she was just talking trash.

c.d.

We have it third-hand assuming she truly said it. Who knows what she originally said compared with what the press reported.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

You left out a motive -- wanting to seem important and to come off as somebody who knows something others don't.

Could she have known who the Ripper was or have been able to make a very educated guess? Certainly. I simply think it more likely that she was just talking trash.

c.d.

That seems a lofty goal for someone without any money we can trace at that point, and if Im correct, she has information that is worth money. Being in the spotlight Im sure paled in comparison with having your meals and doss paid for a long while. And beverages of course.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

No, except for the brief visits by Watkins and Harvey.

Which begs the question....

Did JtR know that Mitre Square was not being watched that night, except for brief visits by PCs?

If he had little or no idea of the surveillance levels, he took a huge risk.
On the other hand, had Jack in fact been casing the joint during the nights leading up to (and possibly including) the murder night, and used the knowledge of PC movements gained, to make an assessment of the risk?

If the later, I wonder if any PC ever said "Hello, hello, hello" to him?

[DJA]

Reckon Jack knew that Watkins would be through at 12 - 14 minute intervals.

Also aware that Harvey couldn't see the corner that he operated in.

Would have taken Jack 10 minutes to complete his tasks and return to his quarters behind the gate.

Surmise he carried a strangled Eddowes to the spot.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Reckon Jack knew that Watkins would be through at 12 - 14 minute intervals.

He does seem to be "counting the beat" in the case of Nichols, Stride and Eddowes.
Okay, so how does he become cognisant of these intervals?
Does he stalk the murder locations, prior to the respective murder nights, and presumably time the intervals (with what?)?
If yes, does a man lurking around what are soon to become murder locations, not attract attention to himself?
Alternatively, could the responsibility for risk assessment have fallen on others?

Presumably there is no debating that Jack becomes a lot more cautious after the double event.
Prior to that night however, is he hardly cautious at all, or just less cautious than he apparently ends up being?

Surmise he carried a strangled Eddowes to the spot.

From outside the square?