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Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

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  • Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

    Ive often thought of the logistics and the witness reports concerning the Mitre Square event, and it seems to me a perfect place to entrap a suspect. Once they enter the square, they have one of 3 possible exits, easy to set up a cordon if you will. We know that at the time of Kates murder, virtually everyone who is in the immediate area is police or ex police, and we know 2 of them would be seeing 2 of those exits around that time. Harvey and Watkins. Outram, Halse and Marriott. Pearce, overlooking the scene from his window, Morris,...these are the closest witnesses at the time of the murder. One actually in the square with an open door, although the retired one...

    I wonder if Kate turned the opposite direction of home when she was released because she had a pre-planned meeting there. The contemporary investigators speculated about that very thing. Maybe she mentioned it while still hammered and being checked in at the station...when she was "nothing".
    Michael Richards

  • #2
    Watkins and Harvey were pounding their (existing) beats in and out of the vicinity, Morris was busy sweeping up, and wasn't Pearce and his family asleep? Doesn't seem much like a stake-out to me. If they'd wanted to keep an eye on the square, I have expected them to have posted a more permanent, and alert, presence.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #3
      How many hours had she been in custody? She hadn’t planned to be arrested so can we really believe that someone kicked their heels in Mitre Square for hours on the off chance that Eddowes would turn up at some point?
      Regards

      Herlock






      "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

      Comment


      • #4
        If it was being watched, then someone fell asleep at the most crucial times.

        Comment


        • #5
          Why Kate chose to go home the long way will probably never be known. I am assuming that this was pure chance and bad luck that she bumped into the Ripper whilst using the Mitre Square route. If she thought she knew who the Ripper was, why would she go to church lane and stand there confronting him- even just having a laugh? If it was me, As soon as I clocked him, I would have made my exit in the total opposite direction, hoping he (the Ripper?) never saw me and ran like mad to the nearest police station with my suspicions. So maybe Kate didn't know the Ripper after all, or she left it too late to leg it and he saw her. Would the Ripper have run the risk of killing someone he knew?

          Comment


          • #6
            Times (London)
            Tuesday, 2 October 1888

            Shortly after the first horrible murders were committed some weeks ago, special precautions were taken by the City Police authorities with a view to detect the criminal or criminals, several plain-clothes constables being ordered on the beats in the district which has now become so notorious. Instructions were given to the constables to watch any man and woman seen together in suspicious circumstances, and especially to observe any woman who might be seen alone in circumstances of a similar nature. At about the time when the Mitre-square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor-street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, engaged, pursuant to their instructions, in watching certain houses, it being thought possible that the premises might be resorted to at some time by the murderer. Five minutes after the discovery of the murder in Mitre-square, the two officers referred to heard of it, and the neighbourhood was at once searched by them, unfortunately without result.

            Windsor Street was directly behind the Bishopsgate Police Station where Kate was held.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Michael,

              How could Kate have had a pre-planned meeting in Mitre Square? Did she know she would be arrested at 8.30 pm and released from Bishopsgate police station at 1.00 am, and somehow rescheduled accordingly?

              Also, do we know for a fact that the woman seen by Lawende and the woman arrested for drunkenness were one and the same person?

              Ripperology insists they were the same person, but such insistence steadily carries less and less weight.

              Regards,

              Simon
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                Hi Michael,

                How could Kate have had a pre-planned meeting in Mitre Square? Did she know she would be arrested at 8.30 pm and released from Bishopsgate police station at 1.00 am, and somehow rescheduled accordingly?

                Also, do we know for a fact that the woman seen by Lawende and the woman arrested for drunkenness were one and the same person?

                Ripperology insists they were the same person, but such insistence steadily carries less and less weight.

                Regards,

                Simon
                Did the Police officer who arrested Kate notice what she was wearing when he took her away? Also the officer at the station must have got a look at her clothing as well. I doubt very much she had a stash of clothing hidden somewhere to change in to and that's were she went instead of going home. I don't think she had a pre-planned meeting, but just perhaps she had got it in her head, that the man she thought was the Ripper hung out in that location, or near too it and she went there.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi BB,

                  So Eddowes set out from Bishopsgate police station for Mitre Square at 1.00 am, thinking that the Ripper might be [still might be] there?

                  Is that what you're saying?

                  Regards,

                  Simon
                  Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Couldn’t she simply have been heading off to someone that she knew in the hope of borrowing money? If she felt that she might get ‘a damn fine hiding’ from Kelly when they eventually met up again might not she have hoped that a few pence might have lightened his mood a touch?
                    Regards

                    Herlock






                    "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So she just happened to wander through Mitre Square on her way to meet this somebody who would lend her fourpence [don't forget, her and Kelly's credit was good at the lodging house], and instead met the Ripper? Also don't forget she was allegedly seen in Aldgate at 1.30 am.
                      Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

                        No, except for the brief visits by Watkins and Harvey.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post

                          Also, do we know for a fact that the woman seen by Lawende and the woman arrested for drunkenness were one and the same person?

                          Ripperology insists they were the same person, but such insistence steadily carries less and less weight.

                          Regards,

                          Simon
                          Insp. McWilliam was not convinced the woman Lawende saw was Eddowes. And, Lawende was not permitted to identify the body, only the clothes, which were "similar".
                          I don't think Lawende saw the killer either.

                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                            So she just happened to wander through Mitre Square on her way to meet this somebody who would lend her fourpence [don't forget, her and Kelly's credit was good at the lodging house], and instead met the Ripper? Also don't forget she was allegedly seen in Aldgate at 1.30 am.
                            Just a suggestion Simon.
                            Regards

                            Herlock






                            "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                              Insp. McWilliam was not convinced the woman Lawende saw was Eddowes. And, Lawende was not permitted to identify the body, only the clothes, which were "similar".
                              I don't think Lawende saw the killer either.
                              Well no one said they saw another couple in the vicinity, and no one came forward after the event to say they were in the area and could have been the persons seen by Lawende, and there is no evidence that the streets were thronging with people, so I would say it is not wrong to speculate that these were Eddowes and the killer.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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