Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

[Michael W Richards]

Lawende says he only saw her from the back. I imagine the police thought it would be pointless to show him Cate's disfigured face which he claimed to never have seen. I think the police were more concerned with Lawende's description of the man she was seen with.

I agree Dusty, its all about Sailor Man, and the irony is... by virtue of the fact that Lawende didn't see Kates face,..that Sailor Man may have been talking with someone other than Kate. Which would relegate him to Distraction,... like Mary Malcolm, Mathew Packer, Israel Schwartz, and George Hutchinson.

[Joshua Rogan]

Lawende says he only saw her from the back. I imagine the police thought it would be pointless to show him Cate's disfigured face which he claimed to never have seen. I think the police were more concerned with Lawende's description of the man she was seen with.

Perhaps. I'm not sure what the police procedure would have been, but if I were in charge I'd have asked him to take a look, even if he didn''t think he could recognise her, on the off-chance he could at least recognise her hair, or some other detail. Or more importantly he might have been able to recognise that it definitely wasn't the woman he'd seen.

I was going to say it's possible he'd viewed the body but failed to recognise it. It still is I suppose. But since he specifies that he viewed the clothes at the police station, rather than the mortuary, perhaps not.

[mpriestnall]

My thoughts exactly.




Lawende says he only saw her from the back. I imagine the police thought it would be pointless to show him Cate's disfigured face which he claimed to never have seen. I think the police were more concerned with Lawende's description of the man she was seen with.

Thanks DB. Doh!

[DustyBones]

It could explain the time delay between the murder and the killer passing through Goulston Street to place/drop the piece of apron.

My thoughts exactly.

Thanks DB.
what are people's views of Lawende not seeing the body? Say from a standard procedure viewpoint etc...

Martyn

Lawende says he only saw her from the back. I imagine the police thought it would be pointless to show him Cate's disfigured face which he claimed to never have seen. I think the police were more concerned with Lawende's description of the man she was seen with.

[mpriestnall]

This is Lawende's Testimony from the Eddowes inquest.

The Coroner: Were they talking? - The woman was standing with her face towards the man, and I only saw her back. She had one hand on his breast. He was the taller. She had on a black jacket and bonnet. I have seen the articles at the police-station, and believe them to be those the deceased was wearing.

Thanks DB.

Is it true Lawende did not see Eddowes' body. If so, what are people's views of Lawende not seeing the body? Say from a standard procedure viewpoint etc...

Martyn

[Curious Cat]

I have always felt that Jack would have made his exit towards Aldgate then up WhiteChaple just blending into the early morning traffic before cutting north on Goulston.

Giving Jack at least 5 minutes to travel before the alarm was sounded, how much distance could Jack cover? How many unsuspecting PCs and people would you pass in that amount of time? How many men in dark hats and dark coats with bloody hands are you going to pass out in the streets at 2:00 in the morning?

Cate's 'hand on his chest' and 'hard against the shutters' with Annie. I think Jack was confident enough to walk around in broad gaslight, trophies and all.

I certainly think the killer left the scene going south down Mitre Street and onto Aldgate while possibly being seen by at least two oblivious PCs before the discovery of Catherine's body.

PC Holland was pretty much removed from his beat on and around the south side of Aldgate High Street area so it would've been a clean run for the killer to briefly hide out around there undetected. The immediate search of the killer appears to have mostly been on the streets north of Aldgate High Street. It could explain the time delay between the murder and the killer passing through Goulston Street to place/drop the piece of apron. No-one other than the killer could possibly be in possession of the apron piece so they must have gone along that way at least once 40 minutes after the murder. The author of the graffiti is still an open question, though.

[DustyBones]

Do you have a source for that? Do we know why he wasn't allowed to see the body? On the face of it, it seems odd to me.

Martyn

This is Lawende's Testimony from the Eddowes inquest.

The Coroner: Were they talking? - The woman was standing with her face towards the man, and I only saw her back. She had one hand on his breast. He was the taller. She had on a black jacket and bonnet. I have seen the articles at the police-station, and believe them to be those the deceased was wearing.

[mpriestnall]

Insp. McWilliam was not convinced the woman Lawende saw was Eddowes. And, Lawende was not permitted to identify the body, only the clothes, which were "similar".
I don't think Lawende saw the killer either.

I wasn't aware that Lawende was not permitted to identify the body, so thanks for that factoid.

Do you have a source for that? Do we know why he wasn't allowed to see the body? On the face of it, it seems odd to me.

Martyn

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think Jack was confident enough to walk around in broad gaslight, trophies and all.

Sure he was confident, but was he reckless?
If yes, then why the pause after the double event?
If no, then what due diligence is involved?

A 'no' answer means accepting he would have run the risk of arousing suspicion around soon to be murder sites (ironically).
It also raises the question of a timepiece being used to accurately measure beat time-spans.
That in turn would be suggestive of Jack's social class (unless he steals one).

At the time, was there much curiosity as to how JtR was managing to do his "work" within the "rhythm of the beats"?

[DustyBones]

I have always felt that Jack would have made his exit towards Aldgate then up WhiteChaple just blending into the early morning traffic before cutting north on Goulston.

Giving Jack at least 5 minutes to travel before the alarm was sounded, how much distance could Jack cover? How many unsuspecting PCs and people would you pass in that amount of time? How many men in dark hats and dark coats with bloody hands are you going to pass out in the streets at 2:00 in the morning?

Cate's 'hand on his chest' and 'hard against the shutters' with Annie. I think Jack was confident enough to walk around in broad gaslight, trophies and all.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Reckon Jack knew that Watkins would be through at 12 - 14 minute intervals.

He does seem to be "counting the beat" in the case of Nichols, Stride and Eddowes.
Okay, so how does he become cognisant of these intervals?
Does he stalk the murder locations, prior to the respective murder nights, and presumably time the intervals (with what?)?
If yes, does a man lurking around what are soon to become murder locations, not attract attention to himself?
Alternatively, could the responsibility for risk assessment have fallen on others?

Presumably there is no debating that Jack becomes a lot more cautious after the double event.
Prior to that night however, is he hardly cautious at all, or just less cautious than he apparently ends up being?

Surmise he carried a strangled Eddowes to the spot.

From outside the square?

[DJA]

Reckon Jack knew that Watkins would be through at 12 - 14 minute intervals.

Also aware that Harvey couldn't see the corner that he operated in.

Would have taken Jack 10 minutes to complete his tasks and return to his quarters behind the gate.

Surmise he carried a strangled Eddowes to the spot.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

No, except for the brief visits by Watkins and Harvey.

Which begs the question....

Did JtR know that Mitre Square was not being watched that night, except for brief visits by PCs?

If he had little or no idea of the surveillance levels, he took a huge risk.
On the other hand, had Jack in fact been casing the joint during the nights leading up to (and possibly including) the murder night, and used the knowledge of PC movements gained, to make an assessment of the risk?

If the later, I wonder if any PC ever said "Hello, hello, hello" to him?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

You left out a motive -- wanting to seem important and to come off as somebody who knows something others don't.

Could she have known who the Ripper was or have been able to make a very educated guess? Certainly. I simply think it more likely that she was just talking trash.

c.d.

That seems a lofty goal for someone without any money we can trace at that point, and if Im correct, she has information that is worth money. Being in the spotlight Im sure paled in comparison with having your meals and doss paid for a long while. And beverages of course.

[Wickerman]

Hello Michael,

You left out a motive -- wanting to seem important and to come off as somebody who knows something others don't.

Could she have known who the Ripper was or have been able to make a very educated guess? Certainly. I simply think it more likely that she was just talking trash.

c.d.

We have it third-hand assuming she truly said it. Who knows what she originally said compared with what the press reported.